support religiously motivated violence." they went on the to say where it errs is labeling anyone who discusses islamic terrorism as a bigot and hate-monger and islamaphobe. in many cases its national and state chapter leaders actively dissuade american muslims from cooperating with law enforcements. after many disappeared from the minneapolis area in 2009, c.a.r.e. attempted to drive a wedge between the muslim community and the fbi, which was seeking to track down the missing men. according to official estimates, at least two dozen americans have moved to somalia in recent years to join the terrorist group al shebab. roughly ten americans that have gone there have been killed in

fighting or acts of terrorism while connected. in 2011, c.a.r.e.'s california chapter displayed an old poster which stated, "build a wall of resistance, don't talk to the fbi." although c.a.r.e. removed the poster once the media reported on it, it reflects a larger and troubling pattern. when the terrorism commission legislation was moving in 1998 and c.a.r.e.'s own word they asked muslims to contact leaders and urge them to eliminate the new legislation that would create a national commission on terrorism this was misguided and fortunately not successful. regrettably, the commission's recommendation sent to congress in june 2000 were generally ignored until 9/11, when 3,000 people were killed, including more than two dozen from my congressional district. let me be clear. c.a.r.e. is counterproductive and it is hurting the american

muslim community. i raise the concerns because if we are to successfully counterradical terrorism, law enforcement will need the active engagement of the muslim communities. i have a recommendation to address the challenge of domestic radicalization head-on. i commend the fbi and director muller and all the men of the february and men and women of the fbi and our services for the outstanding work they have done in inepting would-be terrorists before their attacks. despite

back. liveues here on c-span3. >> law enforcement are so i believed it would provide a tremendous service in making a recommendation i believe team b would provide a tremendous service in making recommendations on how we c closely with former congressman jane harmon on a bipartisan proposal before she retired to leave to go to the woodrow wilson institute.

for over a year, i repeatedly have written the administration you are urging them to implement this proposal. they have not. mr. chairman, i urge support of this legislation, and thank you again for the opportunity to testify. i strongly believe your hearings will provide congress with a starting point for a new dialogue about fighting extremism and radicalization. we cannot afford to be silent. i'm reminded of the song by simon and garfunkel, "the boxer," that says man hears what he wants to hear, but disregards the rest. we cannot disregard the issue of radicalization in our country. your hearings can provide a productive forum for a much-needed dialogue about domestic radical zachlgts i want to thank you very much for your leadership. >> also charged was a father --

this committee hearing is more than three hours.

let me again thank each of the four witnesses for being here today for giving us their valuable time, their input and their varying views, but all that is essential as we move forward. our first witness today, dr. zudi joster is founder of the american islamic forum for democracy. he founded aifd in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in the united states as an effort to provide an arican muslim voice advocating for the preservation of the founding principles of the united states constitution. as a member of congress, i

rememb you when you were here. he is a respected physician and former lieutenant of the united states navy and worked in the attending physicians office here in the united states capitol. for better or worse, he kept us healthy. some of our constituents may not be too happy about that. you did a great job keeping us >>thank you chairman king, ranking member thompson, distinguished members of the committee, for seeking my testimony on what i feel is the most important threat to american security in the 21st century, islamist radicalization. my name is dr. m. zuhdi jasser and i am the president and founder of the american islamic forum for democracy. i sit before you a proud, devout, american muslim whose country is polarized on its perceptions of muslims and the radicalization that occurs within our communities. we form an organization to

address this, but have not been able to move one step forward significantly because of that paralysis. one camp on the polarization refuses to believe any muslim could be radicalized, yet we've seen a significant increase in the number of radicalized muslims that may not be from within our communities that we know, but are muslims nonetheless. on the other side of the polarity that are seek nothing solutions. the majority in the middle is moderate america looking for a solution. i think these hearings or an opportunity for muslims to address at solution. let me be clear and state up front that the u.s. has a significant problem with muslim radicalization. i'm muslim and i realize it's my problem and i need to fix it. that's what i'm trying to do. it's unfortunate that you have some of the best work on radicalization is being done by nonmuslimsike nypd record on

radicalization. most muslim groups condemn that report when we should have been doing that report. let me state clearly it is a problem that we can only solve. christians, jews, nonmuslims cannot solve muslim radicalization. yes, there may be other types of violent extremism, but that cannot be solved by nonmuslims. so we can close our eyes and pretend it doesn't exist. we can call everybody a bigot or islamaphobe, but you're not going to solve the problem and the pblem is increasing exponentially. i hope we can get behind this blind concept of violent extremism. radicalization is a continuum. cooperation is a continuum. i personally have never known a muslim that wouldn't report somebody about to blow something up or commit an act of violence, but that's a final step on a continuum of radicalization. i believe there are small

elements, but significant elements of ideology within our community based on the lack of identification and separatism and disenfranchisement of certain muslims from this society that makes them not bond, not trust the government, makes them distrust thebi and creates a culture of a lack of cooperation. that's what we need your help in solving. america's current paradigm is failing. i'm a physician. i was trained as a physician to patients come in, they've got three or four symptoms, typically they have oning aboe diagnosis. when we look at the problem of radicalization, we have to realize that the panoplea of excuses will never run out. at the end of the day it's a moral corruption within a certain segment that is using our religion, hijacking it for a theopolitical movement that is

not only domestic but is global. the reason i'm here today and taking the time away from my family and my work to do that, to be here with you, is because we are failing. we are not addressing this. we are so much soakingp the bandwidth of the discussion in this country on this with victimization that we are not addressing the core problem and root cause. yet these halls, this government was based on discussing religious diversity. our founding fathers, our establishment clause was based on being able to have discussions that were functional on religion, yet once a movement, a threat hijacks religion, we seem to become completely dysfunctional and we get histrionics and can't talk about that. i want my children to have the gift i got from my parents that felt america, the first minute they stepped off the plane from the oppression of syria and they understood they could practice their beautiful faith of islam

more freely here than anywhere else in the world. why? because this government is not under one faith. it's under god and it's based on liberty. these are t principles just as prime minister cameron said, we can't continue to play defense. we need a muscular liberalism. our tax money, our resources have been squandered. we continue to play defense. until we have an ideological offense into the muslim communities mestically and globally to teach liberty, teach separation of mosque and state, you are not going to solve this problem. we are not going to solve it. i'm not saying you could solve theology. we need to build platforms you can advocate for universal human rights based in the equality of men and women, all faith before law. these are principles that certain pockets of islamic law, islamic legalisms within systems

in this country and outside are vocating that are in contradiction with our government and society and end up radicalizing on a continuum, create a culture of lack of cooperion, and until you treat that diagnosis, what i call political islam, spiritual islam will continue to suffer. r faith community will suffer and this country's security will continue to suffer. the current groups that have been speaking on our behalf have been failing. they m be well intended about civil ghts, but they are apologetics, dismissals have been completely failing. if you look at nidal hassan, he didn't become radical overnight. ifou look at his resume, it's frighteningly similar to mine, but yet something happened in him over years, over years. you can't just blame alaqi. before he came a radicalizer, he was giving sermons in mosques in denver, san diego and northern virginia. when you talk to certain leaders in the muslim community they say

we don't know what happened. he became viole. that's nothe way it works. it creeps up over time. there are enablers. the enabling that's been happening in some of our, not all, not even a majority, has been causing a progression of this problem. >> if you could try to complete in 30seconds? >> yes, sir. ultimately we need solutions. our organization created a muslim liberty project that looks at innoculating muslims. we have a retreat to begin that press. this is our homeland. we want to set this society to begin a counterjihad, and offense to counter the ideas i think is the best way to use our

resources as a nation, and remember that the freedoms we have don't come with a cheap price and we need to give back. and that the solution ultimately to fear of muslims is for americans to see muslims leading the charge against radical islam. >> thank you, dr. jasser. our next witness is melvin bledsoe, father of thank you very much for allowing me to come here and tell the country what happened to my son. this hearing today is extremely important to begin the discussion about the issue of islamic radicalization in america and my hope is that this committee can somehow address this issue in a meaningful, productive way. first, i would like to express my deepest sympathy to the family of private william long, and to the wounded soldier,

quinton ezeagwula. i would like to talk about those complicit in private long's murder - the islamic radicals who programmed and trained my son carlos to kill. i want to tell the american people and the world what happened to my son. we sent him off to college at tennessee state university in nashville, tennessee in the fall of 2003. our dreams about his future ended up in a nightmare. carlos is my only son. he grew up in memphis, tennessee. my wife and i operate a tour company in memphis, tennessee and carlos started helping out with the family business at the age of eight. he loved talking to the traveling public, and he had a lot of fun interacting with the customers. after graduating from high school, he wanted to get a degree in business administration. we thought perhaps he would come back to memphis to run the

business and give my wife and me early retirement. after the fall of 2005 - his sophomore fall in nashville - carlos came home that christmas for the holidays. we were sitting around in the family room, carlos's only sister, monica, her husband and i, having a normal conversation about life in general. but at a certain point, carlos and his brother-in-law terrell got into a heated conversation about the muslim religion. then and later, we felt like carlos's personality changed when we spoke about islam. we thought maybe he had some muslim friends in college and was offended by our comments. the next time carlos came home, we saw another side of him that we hadn't seen before. during the night, he took down all the pictures from the walls in the bedroom where he slept. he even took dr. martin luther king, jr, picture off the wall. we asked carlos, "what is going on with you?" he replied that he is now a new convert to islam and that

everything he does from now on will be to honor allah. we got very concerned. while he was growing up, dr. martin luther king, jr's picture had always hung on his bedroom wall, but now treated the picture as if dr. king was nobody to him. we asked carlos not to take dr. king's picture off the wall, but he took it off the wall anyway. this became a big concern to us. we went to visit him in nashville because we wanted to learn more about what was really going on with carlos. we discovered that carlos had dropped out of school, at the beginning of the 2005 fall semester. he was working a temporary job. he had gotten a dog while in college, and now we found out that he had turned the dog loose in the woods because he was told that muslims consider dogs dirty creatures. i really couldn't understand how he could do that, because carlos grew up with a dog in the house since he was 5-years old. so my wife and i thought that

there something or someone was getting in his head and changing the way he thinks. it had gotten to the point where he had no interest in coming home, even for the holidays. all of this was part of brainwashing him, and changing his thinking a little bit at a time. he had a job in nashville, together with some muslims, who would tell him that according to islamic law, his employer had to let him pray at certain times of the day, regardless of what was going on at the job. as a business owner, i told carlos that it would be very difficult for an employer to do this for all of his employees. as the next step on his process of radicalization, carlos was convinced to change his name. he chose the name abdulhakim muhammad. at this point, his culture was no longer important to him, only the islamic culture mattered. some muslim leaders had taken

advantage of my son. but he's not the only one being taken advantage of. this is going on in nashville and in many other cities in america. in nashville, carlos was captured by people best described as hunters. he was manipulated and lied to. that's how he made his way to yemen. carlos was hoping to go there for a chance to cross over to saudi arabia and visit mecca, as he was taught all true muslims must do at one time in their life. he was taught that he would get to walk on the ground where prophet muhammad walked be able to travel around the area. but these hunters had other plans for him. they set him up, telling him that he could teach english at a british school in aden in south yemen, this school turned out to be a front and carlos ended up in a training camp run by terrorists. carlos's joining in with yemeni extremists was facilitated by their american counterparts in

nashville. we have since discovered that the former imam of a nashville mosque, the al farooq mosque, wrote the recommendation letter carlos needed for the school in yemen. we also discovered that the school functions as an intake front for radicalizing and training westerners for jihad. from what i understand, the fbi had been following carlos since before he left nashville and continued to do so after he came back from yemen. when carlos was arrested for overstaying his visa in october of 2008, he was interviewed by an fbi agent based in nashville even before the u.s. embassy was alerted about the arrest. according to the embassy, the fbi was alarmed about what they learned from carlos. we wish they could have told us his family - about what they learned. if we knew how serious his extremism had become, we could have put in every effort to

prevent the tragedy in arkansas from happening. when my son was arrested in yemen, my family cried out for help in bringing our son back to america from our government. we got in touch with the u.s. embassy and the state department. we also asked for help from our u.s. representative, steve cohen's office, and from fbi special agent greg thomason, who had been tracking my son since nashville. after our son was finally released and brought home to us. no one said anything to us about what might have happened to him in yemen or what they may have learned that so alarmed the fbi agent who interrogated carlos while he was in the custody of yemen's political security organization. carlos's experience in yemeni political jail was the final stage of his radicalization. he was in there with true evil- doers -- hard-core al qaeda members who convinced him to get revenge on america. something is wrong with the muslim leadership in nashville. what happened to carlos at those nashville mosques isn't normal.

i have other family members who are muslims, and they are modern, peaceful, law abiding people, who have been muslim for many years and are not radicalized. i also have several uncles and brothers in the military. our family has fought for the united states in every war since the civil war. i have nephews who are currently in afghanistan, as i speak, fighting for democracy and freedom for all americans. it seems to me that the american people are sitting around and doing nothing about islamic extremism, as if carlos's story and the other stories told at these hearings aren't true. there is a big elephant in the room, but our society continues not to see it. this wrong is caused by political correctness. you can even call it political fear yes, fear. fear of stepping on a special minority population's toes, even as a segment of that population wants to stamp out america and everything we stand for. i must say that we are losing

american babies - our children are in danger. this country must stand up and do something about this problem. yes, it's my son's tragic story you're hearing about today, but tomorrow it could be your son or your daughter. it might be an african-american child that they went after in nashville, but tomorrow their victim might have blonde hair and blue eyes. one thing is for sure, it will happen again. we must stop these extremist invaders from raping the minds of american citizens on american soil. of american citizens. carlos grew up a happy-go-lucky kid. he always had a big smile on his face, and loved to crack a joke or two. everyone liked him. he loved to play team sports

like basketball and football. he loved swimming, dancing, and listening to music. today we have two families that have been destroyed. this could have been prevented. i would like to see something change so that no other family in this great country of ours has to go through what our family is facing now. this great country of ours has to go through what our family are facing today. god help us. god help us. >> thank you, mr. bledsoe. our next witness ises director of somali edation and its social advocacy center in minneapolis, minnesota, the uncle of borhan hassan. i ask you to limit your remarks to five minutes or so. >> thank you. first, i want to say thank you to chairman king and members of the committee for allowing me to speak on behalf of the muslim somali american community today. i also want to thank the somali american community for helping

us, the families of the missing children, to stand up against the radicalization of our youth. stand up against the radicalization of our youth. i want to tell you why i'm here today and how important it is for me. i'm here because of my boren hassan. not only him but 20 and 40 others who are somali americans in the state of minnesota who have been brainwashed, radicalized by members of our community and back home into a berning burning in a civil war. i want to talk aut my nephew. i love my sister, and her family was along about hundreds of thousands o fled from the civil war into the neighboring kenya where in the campus there was no order, but the rape, mass

killing and disorder was the day. everybody begged and longed for the day that they should be helped by the international community. fortunately, my sister and her family, she was one of the luckiest ones that made it to the shores of the united states of america. my nephew immediately adopted slang and become a student. he was loved by the community. his mom and i and everybody el, the best thing for us is to put him in sunday school and that was the mosque, the center. we invested in this center with all our money to make it bigger so it could help our youth and instead of being on the streets, to be influenced into bad behavior. we want our children to succeed. unfortunately on the night election -- historical night of

2004-2008, 2004, my sister kept calling the family and miss her son. we keep calling everybody. we finally end up with other families, we come to the end of that, our kids were lured back into somalia. we went to the mosque and the center and ask for answers. everybody promise that they will meet with us. the other day we were waiting for the imam and the other leaders, all we did was saw up in the somali tv and see them, instead of helping us find our chilen, condemning us to being used to destroy our own mosque and religion. that was more hurtful than missing our children because now we have to deal with the bigger community, to destroy our faith and our community. that set the stage on for two years of struggle.

and the bottom was the community. whoever wins the community, if they win the community, they are not missing children, but liars like me and my family and 20 other single moms who lost th r their -- after two years of demonstrations, educating, fighting with basic and personal money and efforts of sleeping three hours a night, two and a half years, we won the heart and minds of the community. in the middle of the saga, though we never get help, we never got help from our leaders from our organizations, through our big islamic organizations, but in the middle of our kinning, where the community started to sympathize with us, what happened to us, what happened to our engineers, doctors, laers, my nephew wanted to go to harvard, and become a lawyer or a doctor, just like you, but with all

those things, then big organizations come to our community that we have never seen. care, such a beautiful name. islamic organizations is filled with mosques that mosques are organizations that will hurt us so more than our kids missing hurt, call us tools. the center we built, the people we gave millions, our goal, our lives, our imams we trust. i want to warn you it is only one center out of 40 something centers and that's where all the kids are missing. all of them. this orgization comes in, agrees with other leaders too that we are liars, we have a clan, tribal problems. i don't know where that came from. we have no clan, tribe or language problems. we are one community. we have been hurt by other muslims in our community. we have been denied to stand up. we had to do thr

demonstrations on the street in the rain, in the snow in minnesota. minnesota it is cold. islamic orgazation that is claiming in the house of congress they are so powerful that they are helping us, that we are tools to be used by republican, democrat, liberal, by conservative, by nazis, by this. we have been muslims since muhammad. i want to tell you, my community is the most beautiful community in the world i've known. there are 99.9% good american citizens that workday and hard, day and night, 18 hours, 17 hours, seven days, to chase american dream. they don't have a voice. we have been kidnapped. so our children, we have been kidnapped by leadership that we

have never seen. >> mr. bihi,f you can tryo finish in 30, 40 second >> i will finish that. i want to conclude for two and a half years they have not done anything else. the somali community wants to be heard and i thank you, mr. king, congressman king, and other members of the committee for getting me here, for panelists like him, and like me. my community wants to be heard. i would ask you to look and open investigations as to what is happening in my community. we are isolated by islamic organizations and leaders who support them. talk to the common chain, muhammad industry of close to 100,000 members of my community. i want to tell you, 85% of our vulnerable youth do not have viable employment. they are not engaged in constructive programs. and if we stand and speak up for them, we are labeled and hurt

instead of being supported. we need your support, we need a voice to speak up. we have been hurt and we are not going away. >> thank you. >> what i want to say last -- >> i ask the audience to refrain from any response, please. >> what i want to say last, it is important mission that the somali community -- al shabab is killing thousands of people in the city of mogadishu and the world must understand it is not the government of somalia, this problem will continue. my last statement is, i never had this opportunity, the challenge is th the community is lacking strong, viable -- >> mr. bihi, your time expired. the next witness is sheriff baca. your team will not be limited. >> thank you, mr. chairman. sheriff lee baca is a former u.s. marine. he served in law enforcement. he served as a law enforcement

officer for 46 ars. he was elected as our los angeles county sheriff in 1998. sheriff lee baca commands the largest sheriff's department in the unitedstates, leading over 18,000 budgeted, sworn and professional staff, law enforcement officers, and serves over 4 million people. many of the cities, two of which happen to be in my district, compton and carson. his jurisdiction includes 40 cities, nine colleges, 58 superior courts, and a local jail system housing over 20,000 prisoners. sheriff baca is a respected witness. he haseen to this committee testifying in both 2009 and 2010 and was invited here by our ranking member mr. thompson. please join me in welcoming sheriff lee baca. >> thk you very much. mr. chairman, thank you. i thank ranking member thompson and your committee for this

hearing day. moreover, i would like to thank secretary janet napolitano and the department of homeland security for the support los angeles has received regarding combatting violent extremism. the los angeles county sheriff's department has long been a leader in the development of relationships with the various ethnic, cultural and religious communities that thrive in the los angeles area. we have established strong bonds through continuing outreach and physical presence and important events to every community. therefore i would caution that to comment only on the extent of radicalization in the muslim american community may be viewed as singling out a particular section of our nation. this makes a false assumption that any group is prone to radicalization than others. according to information provided by the congressial research service, there have been 77 total terror plots by domestic non-muslim perpetrators

since 9/11. in comparison, there have been 41 total plots by both domestic and international muslim perpettors during the same riod. reports indicate that muslim americans helped foil seven of the last ten plots, propagated by al qaeda, within the united states. evidence cheerily indicated a general rise in extremism across ideologies, therefore we should look at as an issue that affects all groups regardless of religion. it is counterproductive to build trust when individuals or groups claim that islam supports terrorism. this plays directly into the terrorist propaganda that the west war on terror is actually a war against islam. it is critical to build muchally respectful relationships with muslim american communities and endeavor to work together to protect all americans. for example, new immigrants or

citizen citizens -- excuse me, let me start this again. for example, as new immigrants or citizens, the vast majority of muslim committee members within my jurisdiction is fiercely proud of their american identity anddisplay their patriotism on a daily basis. what i made critical outreach to the community after 9/11, i was overwhelmed by the number of muslims who were ready and willing to connect with law enforcement. moreover, after the 2005 transit bombings in london, the muslim american homeland security congress was formed in los angeles county to engage muslim community members in our efforts to counter violent extremism. the homeland security congress is compromised of laders from the religious, business, professional, and academic centers of the muslim american community. moreover, supports the efforts of our muslim community affairs unit, made up of arabic speaking muslim deputy sheriffs and i

might add that the los angeles police department has the same effort going. the muslim american homeland security congress provides support to our homeland security efforts, not only in los angeles, but entire southern cafornia. according to the institute for homeland security solutions report, building on clues, examining successes and failures and detecting u.s. terrorist plots from 1999 to 2009, 40% of all extremist plots were thwarted as a result of tips from the public and informants. muslim american community leaders in los angeles have not hesitated to put themselves in potentially uncomfortable positions to interact with local w enforcement. in 2010, the muslim public affairs counsel enthusiastically responded to requests to speak at our annual radicalization and home grown violent extremism conference.

speaking to 200 law enforcement personnel, salam and ardena subjected themselves to an intense period of questions and answers from the audience regarding islam radicalization and terrorism. due to their courage and willingness to answer any question presented, the evaluation of their performance was overwhelmingly positive. outreach to the muslim community is also done by law enforcement outreach coordinators group which includes the los angeles police department, the city of los angeles, the california emergency management agency, the fbi, the united states attorney genel's office, the transportation security adnistration, and our most supported federal partner, the department of homeland security. in america, we are obligated to protect all citizens in their respective religions and to effectively detect and find extremists. police leaders must have trust in and understanding of all

communities. the muslim community is no less or no more important than others as no one can predict with complete accuracy who and what will pose the next threat against our nation. simply put, police need public participation and to accomplish that, strategies such as public trust policing need to be a priority in our nation. simply our enemies cannot thrive or even survive when a majority of people share common goals a pledge to be an asset for each other in the fight to counter violent extremism. thank you for listening to my brief testimony on a subject that is vital to all americans. >> thank you, sheriff baca. thank you very much. the chair will recognize himself. dr. jasser, thank you for your testimony. you listened to the testimony of mr. bledsoe, mr. bi. i would ask you, do you see these as isolated cases or how -- as a part -- or is it

part of a systemic problem in the muslim america community and, and if it is, how would that be impacted as far as mosques, as far as care, as far as overseas funding? >> chairman king, i can't underscore how important this question is is that is this simply anecdotes like a crime problem or is there a systemic problem? first thing we need to say is the vast majority of mosques are places that all of our families go worship, patriotic americs like every other cross section of america, and not only are they not a threat butould report anything they see. having said that, though, we have a problem internally. where is that? it is a minority, but there is an ideology that exists in some mosques, not all, not a majority, but some mosques and it is a significant number. what i'm talking about is not the violent part. we need to change that paradigm, talking about violence. it is about separatism, the idea that the islamic state takes

precedence over american law. so if you look, for example, mosques that i've seen a sermon phoenix where one of the largest mosques, they held up one of care's pictures and the picture said something, like, extremely insulting about american soldiers and what they're doing in iraq, and you can't tell me that that doesn't have an impact up radicalizing muslims at that mosque. now, is that free speech? absolutely. do their civil rights need to be protected? absolutely. but there should have been a huge protest from people in that mosque that what he did violated and offended us as americans. but there wasn't. there was silence. so i think it is time in this platform that we have here and on should be a platform to awaken the silent muslim majority that exists there, that loves this country to start to do some self-repair rather than turning a blind eye and pointing fingers to other faiths. funding is also an issue. there is a lot of consolidation of funding within mosques. one thing important for the committee to understand is that

our population is extremely diverse. but yet in this country, groups that seem to represen us are those that are mobilized based on being an islamic lobby, which is part of political islam. most of our families left that political islamic party mentality in the middle east and came here to be part of a political infrastructure that separates church and state. so to say that while how do we engage those muslims, where are they, they're hard to get to because they don't want to be involved in islamic or muslim organizations because they separate mosque and state. so i think it is important that we make that distinction. now, looking at the islamists as a group, again, not all -- violence is a small part of their mentality. but yet as you look at the bigger part, they facilitate the concept that the islamic state supremist is better, islamic law should be part of government, l of this needs reform. some of the mosques get funding and have a common source of ownership called north american

islamic trust, listed as an unindicted co-conspirator, they hold deed to some -- they quote 300 mosques on their website. some say up to 50 pr% of mosque. if you look at some of the teachings that the islamic society in north america and a few others endorse, they're associated and i put this in my testimony, some of their imams are associated with the assembly of muslim jurists of america. with some of that funding that came originally from petro dollars in the '70s, comes, i think, an ideology that is pervasive with a fundamentalist islamic strain or islamism as an entity or political islam. very different from islam as a faith, i believe. we still have to go through that enlightenment process and reform, but you can't disconnect the funding. there have been committees in this house that studied that. the judiciary committee and the senate studied that in 2003. i think that is a whole other issue. i do think along with it comes

apologetics, a lack of reform, and a sense of basically trying to eevangelize islam. >> mr. bledsoe, i was moved by your testimony in the leadup to the hearings. this hearing was attacked by everybody from care to kim kardashian to the new york times as being such a dangerous moment we'll have here today. why did you come to testify? what do you hope your testimony will bring about? what is your opinion of this hearing? >> i think it is very necessary for this hearing to be -- i think that as you can see, a lot of people still are in denial that we even have a problem in america with radicalization. i came here to speak to the american people. i wanted to say something on the behalf of my son, and my grandson, which is 9 months old,

open that don't get caught up in that same trap, get captured by that same hunter that my son got caught up in. also, i wanted to say to the american people that i hope that my coming here today, that someone out there in the world, in america, that can hear my story and learn something from the radicalization stages and the process of radicalization, that they can catch some of that, which i did not understand at the time my son was being processed and radicalized. hoping that some other child, some other parent can understand and save that child. if i can save one other child from going to what myfamily has gone through or the victim family went through, then i think my trip here to this

committee was worthwhile. >> thank youmr. bledsoe. i'm privileged to recognize the distinguished ranking member from mississippi, mr. thompson. mr. thompson. >> tnk you very much, mr. chairman. sheriff baca, as a professional law enforcement person, can you share what your traini and experience has taught you in working with different communities within los angeles county? >> yes. the concept of public trust, in my opinion, is the core message of my testimony, that policing requires extraordinary ability to interact with people, particularly in a diverse society where people, whether they're here for long periods of time or immigrants, generally have a mistrust of what we represent on the initial contact.

in the building of relationships in our particular subject today is obviously the muslim community, we believe that what's important is that through relationship building, through programs such as our muslim outreach effort, and thedea that every individual could be a victim of a crime, and when it comes to violent extremism or let's just say even violent gangs. the same approach that you use for a violent gang should be used for what we're now talking about in violent extremism concerning terrorism. once you do that, you have ceded the community into a place where if the informant cannot contact a cop directly, the informant knows someone who can. and so the idea that we must always, as a law enforcement

strategy, be the first ones to know is highly unlikely. that is true of any crime or any gang, but it is also very fundamentally an important point to make when it comes to radicalization. obviously the witnesses here had some exposure before the actions were taken. and as a result, the question is how well can you listen. what i didn't hear is when were the police notified or when were authorities notified? what i'm trying to do is close the gap. what i want to know, as soon as possible, is that when you're experiencing these unusual behaviors within mosques or within individuals within your family, the time to notify authorities is now. and i believe that's part of the reason why these hearings are very, very important. >> thank you very much. dr. jasser, one of the schools

of thought among some of these members of the committee is that we ought to profile muslims in america. do you agree with that? >> i don't agree with blind profiling, that's unconstitutional. however, smart law enforcement that doesn't waste our resources on investigating people that would not have a high propensity toward radicalization i think is smart also. >> no, no, no. the school of thought is that we ought to profile all muslims in america. >> you can't do that because -- >> that's fine. but that's the school of thought. mr. bihi, what's your position on that? >> oh, i -- >> microphone, please. >> 20,000 times against profiling not only muslimists, but any group. >> absolutely. one of the comments that those

of us who had serious problems about hearings of this nature is that you run the risk of profiling law abiding citizens in this country, who just happen to be muslim. and i think what we have to do is take as sheriff baca said, those individuals who see illegal or other activities taking place need to be taught to report it. one of t ways you do that is to engage the community, the law enforcement community as soon as possible. and i think from a professional law enforcement opinion standpoint, that's where we ought to be. last point, dr. jasser, another comment attributed to this committee school of thought is that there are too many mosques in america. do you agree with that? >> absolutely not. my family has built a number of mosques have been involved in that. i feel it is oneof the reasons they came to this country is i order to exercise that freedom.

>> thank you very much. >> can i add one thing, chairman? chairman king, may i add one thing? >> mr. chairman, regular order -- >> mr. thompson controls the time. >> the point is for my questioning standpoint, i think religious freedom has an absolute place in erica. no, no, you've said that there are not too many mosques in america, i'm saying i agree with you. >> as far as law enforcement is concerned -- >> i did not ask the law enforcement question. >> first question you did, sir. >> i did t ask it of you. >> may i say something about -- >> has the gentleman yielded back his time? >> yes. >> i recognize the gentleman from california, mr. lungren.

>> i don't recognize those schools of thought. i want to we can sheriff baca here. he's an old friend. we worked in law enforcement together and we worked wi your department in creating the community oriented policing and problem solving progra that you've carried through of which i would say this is an extension. that is what you referred to here today. at the same time, i would say to those who criticize us for a singular focus here that i have been on panels that have investigated the continuing presence of nazi war criminals in the united states, and whether or not we should continue to investigate and prosecute them. i haveerved on panels that dealt with the war time relocation of japanese americans and japanese nationals that was limited to that. i have been in hearings in whh we have looked at theroblem of

youth gang violence and we didn't talk about nonyouth gang violence. i've been on the judiciary committee when we held hearings about the unsolved murders of african-americans in the south, four decades after that, and where we made sure that there was financing for the justice department to pursue those cases. and we didn't go beyond that. i've been there when we have examined the ku klux klan, but we didn't go beyond that at that time. and when i was attorney general, we did investigate skinhead groups and militias. and we were not criticized or if we were, i didn't think it was reasonable criticism to say we didn't look at other gangs at that time. my point is that we are looking at a specific problem and we're trying to deal with it. and sheriff baca, you indicated you need to have cooperation of law enforcement. what would you say about a poster that tells people build up a wall, do not cooperate with

the fbi? >> i wouldn't advise that to any group of american citizens or any group that is an organization that would like to help solve the problem. obviously we need the help. i think that people that don't trust law enforcement are in a position where they should learn how to trust law enforcement. but the law enforcement community itself has to lead in that relationship. most people tend to step away om law enforcement. >> i appreciate that. but organizations that tell affirmatively say do not cooperate with law enforcement are not exactly helpful in us solvg this problem, correct in. >> that's correct. >> mr. bihi, you mentioned that when you had this problem of looking for your nephew, along with the other 20 lost young people, you keep telling us that and that's a nice euphemism for the fact that you've found that they have been spirited away to a foreign country, and your nephew was killed when he was there, is that not correct? >> that's correct, sir.

>> when you brought that to the attention of members of -- leaders of your mosque, did they encourage you to deal with law enforcement? >> no, as a matter of fact, they threatened me, intimidated me and not only me, the whole families. and there are three messages that they have put out, one message was very strong message that if -- i'm talking about the families that has not reported their missing -- their children to the fbi or to the police. one -- first message -- >> mr. bihi, with the microphone closer please. >> yes, sir. thank you. the first message was to the parents that if you, as a single mother, with cultural language barri barrier, if you go to the fbi or to the police, they don't care about you because you are muslim, they will present you to

guantanamo. very strong message. second message was you have more chances for your son to slip back into the country if you don't become big mouth like bihi or other families if you stay quiet. and some families succeeded. the third was moral and religious. it was after life, if you do that, you'll be responsible for the eradication of all mosques and all islamic society in north america. and you will have eternal fire in hell. >> would you call that intimidation? >> that is the worst form of intimidation. >> you're a target of intimidation? >> what's hat, sir? >> you were a target and your family were a target of intimidation to stop you from cooperating with law enforcement, correct? >> yes, intimidation in its biggest form. if you let me, i would like to say something about what our

great sheriff said about community and fbi relations. we report the missing kids to the police within hours when we woke up. several police stations including the police officers at the minneapolis internional airport, next morning we set up an appointment and we met all the fbi. i believe our director was there too. i also want to mention another thing about hooking up with the fbi and the islamic community. if we let -- if we don't have organizations an imams and leader that create hurdles and blocks and threats and intimidations, we could have done by ourselves and we have done that. we in the somali community get the credit, our congressmen

should give the credit, should give me the credit for making all the efforts that director said about the somali community. and if you check the "usa today" about the report and the work we have done, it was our credit. >> mr. bihi, time has expired. gentle ly from california, miss sanchez, is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i would like to ask unanimous consent to put forward 34 differen letters for our body of work here from different organizations across the nation who have submitted for testimony. >> without objection, so ordered. >> thank you, gentlemen, for being before us and in particular welcome, sheriff baca. you've been before our committee several times. i have the privilege of representing orange county, california, as you know, probably the second or third largest islamic and/or arab

population in the nation. so i'm well aware of the work you have done, not only up in l.a. county, but most people don't realize that in the time of a terrorist attack or a national emergency, we actually fold underour leadership in los angeles. so we have worked a lot together. it is a pleasure always to have you here with us. today my qstion is to mr. jasser. in your testimony you say too many so-called muslim leadership groups in america, like care, or muslim advocates have specifically told muslims across the nation, for example, not to speak to the fbi or law enforcement unless they're accompanied by an attorney. now, the right to have an attorney present, when speaking to law enforcement, is a specific principle of american civil liberties. so as a minority, i would

advocate to people, in particular minorities, that they should have their attney present when being investigated, talk to, spoken to addressed by the fbi. so by what legal principle do you assert that any minority in america should wave that american principle? >> congresswoman sanchez, i don't disagree with you. i'm talking about this as a father. when i walked up to a police officer or the fbi, i teach my children that they're your friends, that you can talk to them. if they ask you things, they're not going to be attacking you. >> if they come to your home at night, like they do in my community, like some come to my community, and knock at 8:00 p.m. at night to ask questions, if it were you on the other side of the door, not knowing what questions they were going to ask, would you not say, can you come back tomorrow to my office of -- my office, my business

office, would you not say let me call my attorney and i'll come meet you downat the fbi office? or would you say, sure, come on in, i'll answer any question. >> it depends on the circumstances. i don't disagree with you -- >> you don't understand the circumstances when somebody comes to your office late at night like that. you would assert the privilege of an attorney, would you not? >> congresswoman, not all the time, no, i would not. i'm not constantly in fear from the government because i have nothing to hide. i'm not saying you don't have civil rights to protect, that is part of the discussion, but when that discussion that you just went through dominateshe entire discourse about muslims in america, it creates a narrative that this government against you and it creates a narrative that it is anti-islam and anti-muslim. we should have our civil rights protected. the rest of it should be about how much we love this government, how much we should join the military, how much we should -- >> we have those discussions. thank you, doctor. we have those discussions obviously in the minority community. i sit on the armed services committee also.

and, you know, i think that's a -- one of the really rock bed ideas of the latino community, for ample. but i still would suggest to anybody that if the fbi comes late at night knocking on your door, you tell them you would like to meet them at some other place at some other time with your attorney. sheriff baca, could you talk about some of the initiatives in particular that you have implemented in your department to work better with the community and it is coming from this background, when we have problems, for example, when we ask people, did you do 586-g, to go after immigrants and, you know, knock on doors and look for undocumteds or when we have these sort of situations where law enforcement comes, in a certain way it is intimidating. it is always -- it is intimid e intimidating for me when law enforcement stops me and i have to pull over. i'm driving a car and i see the

flashing lights in the back, you know, my heart starts to beat. law enforcement is like that -- even for those of us that work with you. what would -- minority communities in particular, i think, have a very big sensitivity to law enforcement. what do you think it happens? what are the initiatives you try so that in factinority communities and immigrant mmunities are not afraid and actually move forward and come forward with information? don't you think when we intimidate them or point them out or profile them or have se of these comments come out like that, that it is dangerous to our ability to get communities to help us? >> the first thing i do is i train all deputies when they enter our academy and exit it to recite the core values of the sheriff's department by heart. this is the bedrock of the american institution, the bill of rights, civil rights and human rights. that is the core values are this, as a leader of los angeles county sheriff department i

commit myself to only perform my duty, with respect for the dignity of all people, the integrity to do what is right and fight what is wrong, wisdom to apply common sense and fairness in all i do and encourage to stand against racism, sexism, anti-semitism, homophobia, and bigotry in all its forms. when you look at the history of bias in america, the reality is that our founders created a brilliant document, the constitution, then the bill of rights, civil rights are real. but human rights are part of the element here when you have an international problem such as terrorism. so people need to clearly know from law enforcement agency where do you stand before you even talk to me? who are you and what do you represent? no police officer, no sheriff, no anybody with law enforcement authority will ever step outside of the american legal system in doing their job. we are the most regulated perhaps form of public service that anyone can imagine. so my first outreach to the

community is to say, if you don't have an encounter with my depp sys that is within those core values, then i need to know about this. when you go a step further there is programs galore. i have advisory councils of all the faiths and this particular issues that are within faiths wherpeople come to me because they have concerns and fears. whether it is orthodox jews or muslims or whether it is pakistanis or south asians or whether it is middle easterners, the truth is is th america is becoming a society of the world. and because of that, we have to be sensitive, we have to know how to work with the various communities. i have over 116 languages spoken in los angeles. i have deputies of all these religions and all these ethnic groups, and we travel throughout the world, quite frankly, on this counterterrorism issue, of which was quite frankly a predictable issue after the gilmore report came out of

congress. and yet los angeles had a terrorism early warning group before 9/11. so when you look at this from the standpoint of why even this hearing is so vil is because americans need to wake up and start learning more about all of the issues that affect their well-being and that police alone can't solve this problem, nor can congress, nor can the administration, without cooperation locally, state wide, nationally, as well as internationally. and we have no national police in ameri. this is why i reach out to new york and check with them on their issues. i reach out to all the major cities as a member of the major city chiefs association. i reach out to my own community so there is no gap regarding resources. the real truth is that the american public must step up to the plate and do more. even if it is just educating yourself. now, on the issue of mosques,

for example -- >> ten seconds. >> we can go into mosques in los angeles and we do that frequently. >> okay. time of the gentle lady is expired. the gentleman from alabama, mr. rogers, is recognized for five minutes. >> before i ask my questions, i want to point out i've been a member of this committee since it was established's standing committee and even before that when it was a select committee. and at no point have i ever heard a member of this committee on either side of the aisle assert that we have too many mosques, too many muslims, or anything of the kind. so i don't know where the ranking member got that school of thought, but it didn't come from this chamber. sheriff baca, thk you for being here again. good to see you. i'm here -- >> if the gentleman would yield for one minute. i think what the ranking member was doing was -- i said at one time there are too many mosques that don't cooperate with law enforcement. i think the testimony today backed that up. not that that there are too many mosques in america. >> sheriff, a little earlier you

heard the association thatcare warns peop any need to have a lawyer before they talk to law enforcement. do you feel like that your jurisdictional residents whether they're muslim, jewish, christian, should have to have a lawyer before they talk to you or one of your sheriff deputies to inform you about something they see as being a potential problem? >> no, i don't personally believe they should take that initial step. so to answer your question, no. >> do you believe your sheriff deputies, when out interacting in the communities and doing their community policing and talking with merchants and individuals should, before they talk to them, warn them they have the right to an attorney before they talk to the sheriff's deputy? yes or no? >> if we have a suspicion that they're about to commit crime, then -- >>hen yes? >> there is only so many questions you can have before you ve to advise them of their constitutional right. that's one of the key fundamental points here. >> but what i'm talking about, just interacting with the community. not pursuing a crime, or a

suspect. but, you know, a lot of information that your deputies get are from interacts with folks out on the beat. i want to make it sure -- make it known that i don't think they have to have an attorney to talk -- to talk with residents. when they're just finding out how things are going. and that was the assertion i see getting a little while ago from the gentle lady from california's questions. we don't want our yng people, our residents to feel like they have to be afraid of law enforcement in this country. if you're being iestigated for a crime, it is different. but just to talk with law enforcement, i don't think an attorney is required, i don't think you would want to have that requirement to be able to do your job or your deputies do their job. i'm real interested, mr. jasser, dr. jasser, what do you specifically think that you should see done in an organized fashion that would help the muslim community begin to work to more self-police, the very

small radical agents or elements of the community. because i agree, the overwhelming majority of muslims are law abiding, good americans and i don't want to paint them with a broad brush. but still, there is that small element in the community that is radicalizing. what would you like to see happening in an organized fashion to curb that? >> well, i can tell you that i look upon this no different than we did the cold war. and that we need to start putting resources, we need to develop public private partnehips, we need to stop using the lowest hanging fruit that exists already as islamic groups in washington, not that they're all islamist, but many of them are. but the ones that are not typically are much less funded, much less endorsed or suppted by media, government, et cetera. we need to start creating platforms like this for america to see we're a diverse population, that we're not all represented by the victim mongering groups and other groups that many of us take our responsibility as americans seriously. so we need to create a kitchen

cabinet, if you will, of strategy, that homeland security is not just a crime problem, what is what you've been hearing, it is a crime problem and we need to work on the ground. that's important, but homeland security is much more than that. as prime minister cameron said, we not only have to get rid of the violence, but the pool i which the violent radical swim. and we need to drain that. that's going to need a generational posture that we build institutions based on liberty, within the muslim community, so we can build forward platforms for forums for debates. we'll do the theological reform, you help us put resources doe midwest abica domestically into institutions >> sheriff baca, you stated the hearing is worthwhile and you've been working on this for a long time even before 9/11, and you mentioned earlier you have an annual forum on the counterterrorism. what would you like to see happen from the organized standpoint that would better facilitate this flow of

information from the muslim community about potential problems within that community? >> ell, like my colleagues in the national sheriffs association and the major city chiefs association, which i'm a member of, and these are all the key elements of local law enforcement leadership, to have a little more coentration on coordinating our joint regional intelligence centers. we are currently sharing some of the things that i've testified to and my deputies are going throughout the country on an invidual basis. but if there was a way that we could develop best practices within the law enforcement community, and the federal government combined, on a continuum of training, we go to different places throughout the country to help each other. and i have to give high credit to the department of homeland security for what they're doing. but i would focus on continuing what we have already established. a lot of work has been done by this committee. we're not starting anew here. we're fine tuning as i see this.

and listening to other ideas. but if you could look at a subcommittee, which i know you have, which would allow for my colleagues to come in, and talk in a prepared manner about these suggestions, i think you would have a better idea as to what local law enforcemt needs. >> thank you very much. i yield. >> the time of the gentleman is expired. the gentle lad from texas is recognized for five minutes. >> i thank the gentleman very much and i want to thank personally all of the witnesses that are here today. i respect the fact that you are here, sheriff baca, we have worked together, we have visited. i thank you you so very much for your presence here today. but i'm reminded of someone, proverb now quoted by sheila jackson lee, cleaning a dirty kitchen. you can't clean it with dirty water. there are no redeeming factual information that we will receive today that can add to the

abhorrence that all of us have on terrorism in the united states of america. we don't disrespect the witnesses. at least i do not. but, you see, it already has been tainted, this hearing. there are no loud sounds of reasoning that are coming through this hearing. the reason is because it is already been classified as an effort to demonize and to castigate a whole broad base of human beings. i cannot stand for that. and i brought with me thea livi document. the first amendment allows us the freedom of religion. the freedom of association, and expression. but i will tell you today that this breathing document is in pain. we could have had a hearing that spoke about any number of issues of terrorism. we might have gone back to the cold cases of the civil rights

movement, acts of terror. we might have tried to understand whether the klansman still roam today and terrorize individuals in partsf this country. maybe we would have found out what those w are opposed to the jewish faith are doing to jewish communities and synagogues, no matter what their religion. maybe we would go and question muslims who are hovering and scared bcause someone might suggest that they too are someone who is eager to do terrorist acts. we would be better off if we would have a hearing speaking about the importance of human intelligence, funding for the elements of the department of homeland security that can work on human resources to be able to hear from individuals who do want to engage and help this country promote its valu. mr. jasser, may i just ask, are you a muslim? >> i'm a devout muslim who prays and fasts and tries to raise my kids to be conservative orthodox muslims, yes, ma'am.

>> thank you. are there any other muslims on the witness table? and that is mr. bihi? >> the record will acknowledge mr. bihi is raising his hand. >> thank you very much. the reason i ask that question is because muslims are here cooperating. they are doing what this hearing has suggested that they do not do. it is an irony an outrage that we are wasting time when muslims are sitting before us, a muslim is on this panel, a muslim has testified, and so i question where are the uncooperative muslims? let me quickly put in the record another aspect of mr. magdanoa's statement that our chairmans with so eager to quote and suggested he whisper to him to have this hearing. millions of americans find community, comfort and support in their faith that includes president obama, who is a christian. so today reminds us that being religious isever un-american. being religious is quintessentially american.

god bless america. then i would simply suggest another comment here saying president obama recognized through our words and deeds we can either play into al qaeda narrative and messaging or we can challenge it and there by undermine it. we're determined to undermine it. this hearing today is playing into al qaeda right now around the world. it is diminishing soldiers that are on the front line that are muslims. those who lost their lives. and it is going in th same route of an arizona and other states. sheriff baca, one quick questi to you, please, can law enforcement find friends in diverse communitys? have you been able to solve problems by developing an understanding, an arab officer, hispanic officer, an african officer, an african-american officer, sir, or an anglo officer that happens to be from portugal or happens to have the ability to speako someone from

the balkans who is here in the united states? is that a positive form of law enforcement? >> yes, it is. and we have the ability to reach all minorities within the county of los angeles and sergeant michael dean, who is here, he can stand up, he's the sergeant -- he's a muslim, he's the sergeant of our muslim affairs outreach. >> thank you. thank you very much. >> all members and guests will refrain from outbursts. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i am overwhelmed by this hearing and thlack of factual basis for it and i don't believe -- >> time of the gentle lady is expired. the gentlem from -- time of the gentle lady is expired. >> it is an outrage. as you already know, there are too many mosques in this country that is is absurd, it is outrageous. it is outrageous. >> the time of the gentle lady is expired. the gentleman from texas. >> i yield back. >>hank you, mr. chairman. as we're talking, it is quite an act to follow, let me say, as we

talked about the constitution and the preamble, it talks about providing for a common defense, and that's what this committee, that's our primary mission, that's what this committee is all about. it is unfortunate in my view that some have attempted to mischaracterize this hearing as an attack on american muslims. let me be clear, it is not -- this comttee that is doing that, but al qaeda that is targeting and attacking our muslim youth. as evidenced by the testimony mr. bledsoe and mr. bihi. in the past two years there have been 27 terror plots and each of them involved extreme radicalization of the muslim faith. this is not to say that all muslims are a threat. to the contrary. the moderate muslim is our greatest ally in fighting rekrur recruitment of muslim youth. along with major hassan, the ft. hoodhooter and many others show the threat to america lies within our own country.

major hassan was promoted, repeatedly, in the name of political correctness. despite obvious signs of radicalization. these indations included conversations with the greatest threat to the united states today. and to ignore the threat of radical islamic extremism in the name of political correctness presents a serious threat to the american people. both attorney neral holder and secretary napolitano have testified that the number of jihadists websites present imminent danger to the united states. and having worked for the justice department prior to congress, i understand the importance to coordinate outreach between law enforcement and the muslim community. and i am very concerned ther are organizations out there speaking for the muslim american community telling them not to coordinate with the fbi and law enforcement as evidented by the poster we saw by the council on american islamic relations. i hope we can begin the dialogue

and ask the necessary questions. before i ask the queions of the witnesses, want to -- i want to read from senator lieberman's letter to the -- to john brennan, the assistant to the president for homeland security. he said the failure to identify our enemy for what it is, violent islamic extremism, is offensive and contradicts thousands of years of accepd military and intelligence doctrine to know your enemy. we havto know our enemy. and it is radical islam in my judgment. i wod like to ask mr. bledsoe and mr bihi, your children were kidnapped by these two mosques, held hostage, sent overseas to both yemen and to somaa, and their lives were destroyed. had these two mosques done anything to repair the relationship? have they ever told you they're soy and have they ever told you that they will change their

practices? >> i'll speak first. no, i have not hear from a mosque at all about whether or not they are sorry. i think that going back to the question, the lady from texas, we're not talking about all muslim. we're talking about islamic radicalization. and that i wanted to make clear because that is a difference. i have muslim in my family, i mentioned earlier. i'm sitting in the middle between two. we're not talking about all muslim. we're talking about the ones who are hardened behind the moderate muslim. and they're the one who is a threat to america, a threat to our babies, a threat to the children, and they are in danger. >> do the mosques know that they're responsible for the radicalization of your son? >> sure, they know. but ey'rwaiting around to do it again to someone else's child. that's why i'm here today hoping

that american people, you're listening. i hope you hear me. i hope you learn something from that. i don't think that any other child or any other parent in america should have to go through what i'm facing today. >> and i agree with that. mr. bihi, has the mosque that radicalized your nephew ever apologized or taken responsibility? >> sir, no, never had they apologized. they, as a matter of fact, attacked us and called us names and tools of infidels. and it seems that still nobody from the leadership or congress in the state of minnesota, the ismic organizations, none of them have ever admit 20 or more somali american families who were refugees get their kids from civil war lucky enough to raise their kids in a college

level. those families were hurt. not congressmen, not cae, not any other organization, not the mosque people, none of them ever visited them or even mentioned them. as a matter of fact they call us liers. >> and ini have dellvi infidels. you appeared before -- >> the time of the gentleman expired. >> i'll follow up with a written question. thank you. >> the gentle lady from california, miss richardson, is recognized for five minutes. >> i would like to ask unanimous consent that aopy of the following items would be submitted and submitted for the record. one would be a text of the attorney general's interview. the second would be a letter sent to you on march 9th of 2007 political insider article and a reference to a 2011 hearing in this committee. without objection? >> so ordered, without objection. >> thank you, sir. mr. chairman, a few members of this committee experienced events of 9/11 more traumatic

than you have. and based upon those experiences and the inception of this house committee, chairman king and ranking member thompson, you've produced tangible results and because of that work i made every effort to serve on this committee. unfortunately today though as a member i vehemently oppose the narrow approach this committee has taken in this hearing. i was bor in the 1960s. and in my elementary history classes i saw shocking films of leaders in the 40s and the 50s disgracefully violating the principles of which this country was founded. the only difference history will say today is that those shows were in black and white and this one now is in color. discrimination, a definition is the treatment or the consideration of or a making a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing based upon agroup, class or category to which that person or thing belongs, rather than on its individual merit.

when elected officials or public servants are sworn in for duty including with the oath is an understanding not to abuse the power given. one definition of abuse of power is improper use of authority by someone who has that authority because he or she holds a public office. i believe the narrow scope of this hearing is dris krim that torry an abuse of power. search by the congressional research center has spoken, we saw a chart that talked about muslim plots but it didn't talk about the 44 non-muslim plots which are more than double of what we have seen of other extremists. according to the institute of homeland security solutions al qaeda and the allied movements were responsible for 26.7 domestic terror attacks. while also white supremists accounted for 23.3%. thus restricting this hearing for the consideration of

radicalization of american muslims and not equally of other groups is wrong. the house judiciary committee and house energy and commerce committee have not investigated other religious groups or their leaders for failing to cooperate with law enforcement that may have allegedly caused mental or physical harm to children, so clearly this committee is setting a dangerous precedent in treating one religious group different than another. thereby calling into the question this committee's actions and whether those actions violate this country's laws and principles. mr. chairman i would like to reference for the record attorney general's actual interview and in the interview when mr. holder said that it's one of the things that keeps me up at night, holder said, you didn't worry about this even two years ago, about individuals, about amerans. he never said muslim americans. also, we need to point out that

in 2007 and i won't say people by name because i do respect my colleagues, it was said in reference in a political article, too many mosques are in this country, there are too many people sympathetic to radical islam. nothing reference to cooperation. in this committee hearing on february 9, 2011, it was said in this hearing we've got to focus on those people who harm us. it's the islamic extremists. these are dangerous things. now, i also want to point out a reference that wasn't talked about in this hearing, i asked michael leader, the national counter terrorism center director, i asked him specifically, what percentage of the people being looked at by your agency for domestic terror threats were slims? his answer for threcord, it is absolutely tiny, a my minute percentage of muslim population that is looked at. finay mr. chairman, i would like to ask my sheriff for the

record because the whole cause of this hearing was to say there was a lack of cooperation, sheriff baca, you talked about what you do. tell us what the muslim community does? do they fail to initiate and cooperate with you? >> it's a very, very good question to ask. i think what we have here is a perspective that i believe has to be widened in terms of who are the muslims that cooperate, and i believe that muslims are cooperating much more outside of organizations as well as inside organizations. we have both. you can't look at this perspective of who's cooperating based on organizations alone. the truth is that muslims are just as independent, just as feisty, just as concerned about with safety, they certainly dot want their homes or mosques blown up and there be as individuals they have been doing things with local law enforcement without cover so to

speak of an organization. even with the organizational effort, what i see is a merging confidence in the muslim community, particularly in los angeles and i think it's true in new york to a degree, through my contacts with muslims even in new york, that people are getting more realizing to the point that police aren't out to mess around withthem, that there basically is this primary focus on prevention, and we have spent a t of energy locally in these joint regional intelligent centers just to prevent stuff from happening at its earliest possible point. the truth of it all is that we're as a nation doing relatively good, we're not going to eliminate this possible problem. but as a nation we're getting better and better and better, and this is why i'm re. i don't -- particularly think these hearings can be negative totally. i believe they have a potential to keep the public involved in

this discussion which will further lead to better solutions and the robustness of the opinns will say that everyone's entitled to say what they are saying. that's what i'm taking from this hearing. >> the time of the gentle lady is expired. the gentleman from florida is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. i appreciate it. i thank the witnesses for being here and testifying. i'll get into the questions. terrorist organizations have become increasingly adept at using the internet and social media to recruit, inspire, motivate individuals, already in the united states to carry out attacks on their behalf. and this question is for mr. jasser, sheriff baca, but others wish, you are free to respond as well. one such website that has been described as key to al qaeda's communications was hosted by a web hosting company in my area of tampa bay in the state of florida, the site has since been taken down. what are your thoughts on how to

combat the use of the internet and other technology by terrorist organizations overseas to inspire and inspire terrorist attacks in our country by those already here? >> congressman, that's a wonderful question. and i think it points to the fact we have not had any type of cyber counter jihad if you will. why, because that can only be done by muslims so we need your support to do that and key can do with it the right resources by countering that ideology. the narrative says that america is against muslims, it creates this that america is going to iraq, to convert, kill them, attack them. that's the narrative. we can present our strategy so far has been try to break down that propaganda. that's wrong. we need to have a forward strategy of liberty minded freedom minded ideas into the islamic consciousness. we can do that as muslims but we need your help through websites, a social network. look what happened in egypt and

tunisia through social networking and that countered a lot, thatasn't islamists that did that. most was secular muslims that wanted to take control of their future. when we have a government that produces a report and after the hassan incident and the word muslim or islam or jihad isn't in the document, you wonder why we are so paralyzed in treating this, i as a muslim i need this conversation. if we're going to fix this cancer that's within, the whole viable wonderful beautiful faith that i practice, we need to be able to talk about it. it's like trying to treat cancer without saying the word. it's not islam, but it's jihadi, lamism, a political entity we can fight on the web but we've been absent. we surrendered the constitution to the jihadists. >> sheriff. >> yes. the sheriff's department, as you know, and the lapd along with federal and state partners runs this regional intelligence center which is an open source

investigative arm. but we moisted it into the terrorism task forces when we deal with specific things such as cyber terrorism and the websites. we monitor them, some points they get shut down and other times we monitor them and continue to monitor them because it is an excellent source for what would later become an actual investigation. so tre is a broader strategy th is involving all of our levels of government in this website issue. >> thank you. my next question for the panel -- >> please do. thank you. >> lately we have been seeing the excuse that there are recruiters for these kids. they are recruited by t internet, by the cyberspace. i do not believe that there is a kid that gets u in theiddle of the night and just walks into

the computer, logs on to a jihadist or al qaeda website and decides the next day to fly in and explode themselves. that's very weak excuse. the radicalization process or the brain washing process takes years. there must be somebody on the ground exploit this kid, what he's angry is, what are his weaknesses. like if there is no father f there is no mentor, if they are smart, if they are weak so the process takes forever. internet one of the last tips to do land courses, to educate yourself into academic level of being gone. thank you. >> thank you. you want t add something? >> i have no comments. >> very good. my next question for the entire panel, i don't have a lot of time, what demographics have

demonstrated to be particularly susceptible to eremist recruiting efforts within america, to what extent are youth and universities particularly at risk for the entire panel? >> i'll jump in quick and tell you that that's why we focused our muslim liberty program on adults 15 to 30. young muslim adults in this country, 15 to 29, 25% thought there was maybe some justification for suicide bombing. that is not typical of the general population of muslims, it's a demographic that we need to target, need to look at figure out because their minds are shaped, being pulled as prime minister cameron said it's an identity problem. they are not identifying with this nation. we need to renew what this country stands for ux bring them in so as muslims they feel american and that will inoculate them. >> the time expired. the gentleman from louisiana, mr. richmand for five minutes.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you ranking member. i would say that earlier we heard quotes from members from the fbi director, and we heard quotes from eric holder. there is a blues song that says if you tell it, tell it all. what we didn't hear quoted was the fact that the fbi director said home grown extremists and lone wolf activity are a serious a threat to the homeland as al qaeda and its affiliates. that's not what this hearing deals with. we also heard from eric holder that the cooperation of muslims and communities has been absolutely essential in identifying and preventing terrorime expired. the gentleman from louisiana, mr. richmand for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you ranking member. i have. and i will not only say that i think to focus on just the

muslim community is wrong, i will offer that we could have had another hearing today but some of the same witnesses and mr. bledsoe and mr. bihi i think there are a number of families that are suffering your same pain and i pray for you and for them also. but we could have had a title of a hearing that simply said wat is driving passive and activist americans to being militant and extremists? that covers the broad rainbow and spectrum of what's going on in this country without singling out a particular group. here's some very pointed questions. especially mr. bledsoe and mr. bihi first. do you agree that part of the propaganda they use to reskrut that america, the narrative, as dr. jasser said, the narrative is that america is at war with islam? >> no. i don't agree so much with that. i think that they us it to recruit as well to say american

doesn't appreciate african-americans and that's one of the i think the reason you find a lot of african-american being recruited because they can use that as a weakness. >> thank y. >> sir, thank you for your question. to the particular group of the somali american which is a large group, dealing with the main thing, the main victims are somali victims in somali. it's also part of the american heritage and other worlds including the muslim world leaders, so to shed light on this, these people have a target to use these kids not only in the united states of america but also other countries including somalia that they are shedding blood as we speak now for 20 years. >> dr. sser, i did quote you

correctly when you said that the narrative and the propaganda is that america is at war with islam. >> that's the narrative from the islamist side, yes. >> and mr. bledsoe, i would say as a young african-american male your sentiment that that's part of the propaganda that's used i would say it's also a worry to me when so many people, especially on this committee and in congress w have never been a victim of profiling based on race, religion or any others, are quick to suggest that is a legitimate crime fighting tool when it's irresponsible andot the smartest way to fight crime. dr. jasser, do you believe today, that there are people promoting propaganda based on this hearing alone that's saying that this is evidence of america's war with islam? >> there may be some exploiting that for that but i hope we are mature as a country to be more

pragmatic and practical and use this as an opportunity to go beyond that and not allow and ideology that cloak itself in religion to have a poison pill that prevents us from dealing with it. so if it's a theo political movement how else can we counter it, promotehe constitutional ideals against those that co-opt our communities for wanting to put sharia law in government, how do we night if we can't even discuss it because we're worried about offending sensibility. how do we treat hassans of the world if our government spends millions on a report that doesn't cite his slip down radic radicalism. how can i help you as a muslim, help my children resurrect their faith if i can't talk about it >> i think we can talk about it. we talk about it in the terms of the constitution and religion. we don't have to single out the single religion but we can have an honest dialogue about race,

about with relign if we talk about the fact it's not just the muslim religion, the islamic religion. it's a broad spectrum. >> 220 arrests of terror cases in the last two years, 180 plus were muslims so you're going to waste all of this time discussing all of the other faiths which i can't help you with, while we have a muslim problem that i can help you with, not for most mlimsa minority but we're going to twhaeft time and resources because we're worried about offending muslims because of political correctness? >> no. i would suggest that every terror plot is important and every life that's lost is important. i would not consider it a waste of time to talk about extremism in any form or fashion because they take lives. and we can talk about and i won't go through the incidents, but that's what's important to me, to make sure we don't focus so far on one segment that we miss the entire segment that's

gone on somewhere else. that's what's important. i think there was a way to do it comprehensively and i'm just disappointed we didn't do it that way. i ink you all had very good points. >> the time expired. thank you. e gentleman from georgia, dr. brown. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you all for being here. when i was in the marine corps i was taught to know your enemy. i think that's extremely important. the enemy in this, the focus of this hearing today is not islamic religion. it's islamists. it's the radical jihadist, it's the radicalization of our youth as mr. bledsoe and mr. bihi have talked about, and i think it's absolutely critical that we as a nation focus upon doing exactly what i was taught in the united states marine corps, to know your enemy. dr. jasser, i'm very

appreciative of your work and your testimony and particularly your answer to mr. richmond. i think it's extremely important to focus on who wants to destroy this country. and i believe that there are entities within this country that are supporting those radical jihadists. i think there are organizations that are very public that are supporting the radical jihadist. we need to know exactly who our emy is, we need to focus on that enemy and not let political correctness deter us from that. thank you in that regard. i think political correctness is also an enemy of us focusing upon those who want to destroy this country. i don't know a single person on this side of the aisle that is

islam a phobic. i think every single person, every republican, wants tfocus on exactly what this hearing is all about. and that's the radicalization which is a tremendous, tremendous national security problem. and dr.jasser, we heard a lot about care. and i like to hear from you wh your view of care is and does care represent all muslim americans, does care represent you, and is care helping or hurting your effort to try to foster peace, to foster liberty and fedom within the muslim community? >> thank you. i'll tell you that we have to realize that one of the things we're missing in these demographics is muslims are 4 to

5 million americans, and the minority of them belong to these organizations. the minority of them actually go to mosque regularly. so we have to be careful, yes, mosques and practicing our faith is something i love, i involve in but that's because i take my faith as something that i want to practice actively. many muslims choose not the. that doesn't mean they aren't represented by these discussions, that doesn't mean we should ignore them. the groups that inherently collectivize become the representatives of muslims which is actually not consistent with our american ideals, and yet in the middle east, we -- there is a lot of banter between selarists d ismists because they real litz it's not anti-islam to be against the muslim brotherhood type groups. i think we have to realize when we look at groups like care i believe they come out of that same mentality t collectivization of muslims and use systems to avoid dealing with pathologies thatwe need to

treat. so in the interesting think, islamic american relations i teach my kids being american is islamic. there is no relations between the two. it's inherently the same. so the construct is built on a separation if you will. an i think it's one of actually we may be giving it too much importance, it's one of a large number of organizations that serve to advance political islam in the west. there is a sense that those advocates for those groups want to bring islam here rather than absorb american freedom and reform our faith. the evidence i have of that, look how much work they have done or the islamists in north america to modernize the legal systems of our faith to be commsurate with the laws of this land and not in conflict. you'll find and i put in my testimony, groups like the assembly of muslim jurists of america, they have never made

stances against some of the religious rulings in there, so they basically become enablers of ideas that tell muslim kids don't really take a citizenship if you don't have to. if somebody commits an act and leavings the faith our law if it was muslim majority they should be killed. this is the law that's on the books. so my biggest fear besides all of this discussion, i hope to generate new books, new schools of thought in our islamic legalisms that aren't in conflict with society andive muslims identity. >> time expired. the gentleman from michigan, mr. clark. recognized for five minutes. thank you, mr. chair. thousands of innocent people were killed as a result of attacks on this country. it's understandable why the issue of terrorism in america

illicits outrage and emotion. sheriff baca, i've got a question for you, but one ing i wanted to commend you is that those core values that your deputies make an oath to, underscore the rightshat we all have in this country to be treated fairly by our government. and i recognize those rights. not only as a member of congress whose taken an oath to uphold the constitution, but also mr. chair, on a personal note. it's because my father who cared for me, who loved me,was a muslim. he died when i was 8 years old but i'll never forget him. he was a kind and gentle soul. most importantly what i remember is that his love for people was based in his faith in god.

in order for us to make sure that 9/11 never ever happens again, i urge all of us as members of congress to make our decisions based on sound intelligence. not on profiling. not on stereotyping. which could lead and fuel more hatred and bigotry. i'm going to ask my question in a second. but sheriff, i commend first responders like yours because you know the best way i realize to better prepare our country against these attacks is to fully equip our men and women who risk their lives as police, firefighters, emergency medical providers to make sure they have the resources. in michigan, theouncil of american islamic relations have worked with law enforcement. as a matter of fact, just last year they met 13 times wth federal law enforcement

officialsin order to create a better dialogue between the communy and federal law enforcement. i appreciate any thoughts you may have to better foster relations between law enforcement and the muslim community and if you choose to you can cite some examples that you know about first-hand. and if there is time remaining i would like to yield my remaining time to member richardson. >> as we can tell by the testimony of the witnesses and your comments we have a very diverse muslim community in the united states. first of all, organizations are more helpful than not. i believe that the message and the narrative should be that everyo can pitch in in one form or another at the right time. when it comes to encountering violent extremism all resources can count and we should not discount resources in any

fashion irrespective of the various points tt have been made. when we formed the first muslim american homeland security congress, this is an organization made up of organizations, individualsed incling the council and mosques that are vizized. what we have when we talk about care as an organization, care supported the development of the muslim american homeland security congress. furthermore, they support the muslim outreach program that i'm doing. what i think has happened here ishat care is only a multitude of chapters not one single orgs. in southern california i have not heard of any complaints from my deputies who were involved in the investigative processes that i alluded to of saying don't cooperate. what's going on in other parts of the country i can't attest

to. i have never had a briefing on the whole issue from the fbi as to what their position is. but i will say that when i asked, after particularly the london and -- excuse me, after 9/11 i asked care if i were in your position, i would post admonitions in mosques. if you have that ability to, that advise the attendees that come to pray, to not bring in extremist points of view. and this this was very particularly important to me because at one mosque that i went to a young man came up to me when we were in a meeting of solidarity among the face and ied that wife of the supervisor with me who is jewish, he couldn't make the meeting and i was holding onto a koran, an individual came up to me and said you are forbidden to hold

the karon. i said you better open it up because it was given to me by the imam of this mosque. it's people like you giving the muslim community a bad name and he walked out and that was the end of that confrontation. but the point here is that i have not experienced anying to suggest that care supports terrorism in southern california care organization. >> time of the gentleman expired. the gentleman from new york, mr. higgins is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> sorry. actually go ck to the gentle lady from michigan, miss miller. >> thank you, mr. chairman. sorry, mr. higgins. you know first of all i want to thanyou for holding this hearing. i think it is very, very important and certainly after listening to the testimony today of all of the witnesses it's very clear that we have situations here in america that

we need to examine candidly as we all seek the very same thing which is a strong safe secure america. and you know in the run-up to today's hearings we heard talk about how we should not be prejudging any one single group. i think after hearing the compelling testimony i think many, many, particularly in the media were as misguided by prejudging what this hearing was about. i'm hopeful this will strengthen our country. i think it's an opportunity to have an actual pivot for us and help us all to stand together. above everything else and i would make an observation. i know so many of my colleagues mentioned that we should be having all of these hearings on other groups who could potentially be a threat to america and i don't know why we never had those hearings. we had the ft. hood massacrant didn't have a hearing. we are on fema trailers.

i represent a district in southeast michigan next to mr. dingell who spoke and next to mr. clark from detroit. as you heard we have the largest arabic population in the country, a diverse population with leb 0 niece, palestinians, jordanian, yemenese and many othe. these are proud americans make up an important part of our community. you know, before i came to the congress i had the honor and privilege of serving as michigan's secretary of state. two of my responsibilities running the state elections but secondly serving as the motor vehicle administrators. i worked closely with the arabic community to make sure they were registered to vote. and issuing the driver's license i. remember running into a buzz saw when we had some female members of the arabic community who didn't want to have dryer

photos taken unless they were mpletely covered with just their eyes. we said no, if youav a michigan driver's license used as part of your identity, you have to have a picture taken. and we tried to be sensitive having a female clerk in the back room, et cetera. we want to be very sensitive to cultural differences but in america we have equal rights for all. and special rights for none. recently adam gahon, born in california and radicalized, he is known as the american spokesman for al qaeda and the arabian peninsula. he made comments calling on muslims, i will quote, living in the miserable suburbs of detroit to take thenitiative, to perform the obligation of gee had. and i wod say that rad dal al qaeda thoughts do not speak for our neighbors who stand up

for american ideals of liberty and freedom and democracy. and again it's my hope that this hearing will reiterate to those in the mosques or just in the muslim community, anywhere that if they hear of efforts from radical extremists to ra radical their hate that they can and must come hort to law enforcement. my question would go to mr. bleds sew who your testimony touched me. and particularly as you say how you have muslims in your own family could you -- how do you think america could better educate ourselves on the religion of ris lamb so others, that particularly parents might be able to recognize if thir children turned the wrong way on a proud and peaceful relidge tune the wrong side of this religion to one that is of hate and perverted that religion. how do you think we could better

educate ourselves. >> i think we can better educate by first teaching the american citizens, american children, what islam is and what islam is not. i thk that is one thing that needs to be done, more americans ne to be educated about the religion and not be afraid to understand the religion. i want to go back while m speaking here to show you when he spoke about you got to call the police, would you see different things. in the process of lies and shn especially with my sun, we did not know what was happening when he was taking his dogs out in the woods and leaving them or taking a picture off the wall. it is something new to america. it's new to me.

as i couldn't quickly just say, because you become a muslim, that you know, you cannot do these kind of things. i felt this s part of the cultural. learning the religion. yet i found out later it was more than at. i am saying to the american people it's the process of what happens. it takes a while sometimes to realize that your child is being radicalized. what i have said today i hope that someone is listening. if you find that your child is getting rid of the dog or he isn't himself, the family staying away from the family, not coming home from college or holidays. yes, you should perhaps call the law enforcement and get them involved. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. now the gentleman from new york, mr higgins. >> thank you. finally. i want to thank the panel. i think this has been a

productive discussion. one iwhich i have learned quite a bit from. in the aftermath of 9/11, we were all taught that we are not at war as a nation with islam. we were at war with those who hijacked that religion. and used it to justify their murderous and cowardly acts. from that a lot of relationships were developed between the law enforcement community, local, state and federal. with the muslim community. to try to better understand one another. i think we're at a point where progress has been made but still much work needs to be done. and when i look at or hear the sheriff from los angeles talk about the programs that have been developed in your community, it's very similar to that of my community.

in buffalo, new york, a smaller city directly south of buffalo is lackawanna. an old steel city that was home to the lackawanna six. it was si muslim american men who were convicted of providing material support to al qaeda by training in their camps in kandahar, afghanistan. efforts are being made now, they were very young, efforts are being made to reradicalize, to counter radicalize and that should be i think the focus of what it is we're doing in protion of movement forward in that direction as well. you know, there's a lot of misunderstanding when you get into this issue and i think people get invested into their owe motional positions that don't have a factual base. give you an example. in this nation we have not only a cistian judeo adition, we have a christian judeo islamic

tradition in this nation. but the basis of those religions are compassion, forgiveness, love, and tolerance. the prophet mo ha smed a prophet of mercy. in my catholic religi i was raised by the sisters ever mercy. i think we all have a lot to learn from one another about this issue. we have a long way to go, the radicalization of muslims in america is in large part influenced by the convergence of new technology that allows groups to communicate in ways they never were able to before. al qaeda in the araan peninsula has a publication called inspi. they are trying to influence throughout the world unlike they have ever been able to before since they are -- their "inception." these present extra ordinary challenges. i think that provides a basis

from which our nation, all our law enforcement agencies in each individual state and locality develop those relationships with the muslim american community. in the end we are all americans. and people don't come to this country by and large to create havoc. they come because they thirst for the freedom we hae. that's what they want for themselves and their families. so sheriff if you want to elaborate further on some of the programs you've been working on and be interested in that. >> thank you. i'll share with you what the muslims themselves in los angeles are interested in and this is part of the relationship building. they are interested in, we've given them programs on domestic violence, on gang activities and awareness, youth in teens, a driving education, the terrorism issue, obviously.

narcotics education and awareness and identity theft and awareness. so i intended listening to your overview which i agree with, when you think about it, most americans don't think on a daily basis like we do here. we are obligated to have concern and sophistication and we can disagree all we wt. the average american should be able to go about their business on a day lis basis and not have too worry about this because that's what they a paying us to do. in the context of your question, what i think is the bigger problem is that most muslims don't know what the koran is all about. this is my assertion. when i start talking to people since i've been given a koran i'm obligated to read it. there is reference to bury the mother of jesus, there is

reference to - according to the widespread belief of scholars of islam that you cannot be a muslim unless you honor judaism and chstianity. you cannot exclude those two faiths from t internal composition of what the prophet was saying when this koran became what it is that it is. that's my biggest advice. get smarter on your own faith. praying five times a day as a ritual that is important but is not islam. it is the ability to have a sense of tolerance for judaism, christianity and all faiths of the world, that's the message th i think is not being heard by the american public. >> time of the gentleman has expired. mr. walberg from michigan. recognize forward five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for holding this

hearing. i think it's an important time to do it and time to carry on what this committee was originally established to do. i thank you as well for hanging the pictures in the back of the room again. to remind us of the purpose of this committee that we would understand the liberty and its price is eamericanle vigilance. i think the witnesses. and yes for muslims being here and cooperating today. because indeed, it is the muslim community that is at the table today and represented at the table today that i think desires to have a change in what's going on and the perception that results from positive effort in standing against the radicalization of their young people. and others who aren't their young people but are pulled in so i thank you for your courage in stepping to the table and

sharing with us your story. to allow that story to be hold more let me quickly go to the question. dr. jasser, what do you hope will be taken away from this hearing for muslim americans and also for non-muslim americans. >> thank you, congressman. i hope we see this as the beginning of a dialogue and it's interesting, some of the feedback i got leading up to this was what's the government doing getting involved in religious issues. it's against the first amendment. as i heard the conversation i saw that religious issues are all right as long as everything is positive. that's the islam that i teach my children. but we have to realize there are many islams out there. if we are going to prosect our homeland we need to develop a strategy, a forward strach with a platform for organizations that are muslim and our government to work together in a public/private partnership. i think a lot of the discussion has been healthy. there are a lot of partner ships

that are successful. those are about the crime element, the violence. the problem is deeper. it's an ideology one. you see for example, in michigan, there was a shooting of an imam who was basically running a radical sect. and the islamic groups including care, michigan had to have an all topsy. no mention of the ideology he wanted to have an islamic state. all of these things that we should be filling the internet with we're not doing. our homeland security is atisk because tho cause a continuum of radicalization and we need platforms to do that at universities, think tanks, at all of the institutions that this government helps change the agenda of society i hope this is a pivot point in changing the agenda so you can help me create and us and other organizations there are a lot of other organizations like mine doing

this reform work and not allow just the revivalists to get the microphone but the reformists. to say we want to modernize. >> thank you, dr. jasser. i have many muslim friends in both in michigan as well as in uganda. in the recent somalian bombings at the world cup experience, and in copallia i thankfully have a very, very dear frid who was at that restaurant who was chaperoning anamerican group. there were christians and muslims in the room at the same table. due to two bodies in between my friend and the suicide bomber he lived to transport bodies and victims to the hospital in a van that i traveled in many times and ma miles.

after that bombing, the word came out from the somalian muslim terrorist group apologizing to ugandan for their lives being lost because thr efforts were to go after americans and whites. now you have experienced it first-hand, mr. bihi. how concerned are you that other young so molly males from your may be influenced tjoin the violent jihad either in the united states or somalia >> we are very concerned. we are extremely concerned that we have our immediateoutreach concerning this matter right away without funding, no support with all those pressures on silencing. we won the hearts of hundreds of people, young people, not to change their minds. we have influenced as you have heard, we have a huge because of the long running civil war by

somalia, over 25 yearsnow, we have influenced denmark, the community in denmark, we have influenced the community in canada, in sweden, in switzerland, in germany, in lancaster, in liverpool, in all over the world, luxembourg, the netherlands, in ireland, we are getting every time you open the tv you see a man indicted because of his intentions to do a jihad. we are victims are wonderful to organizations that are taking and picking on us like a salmon fish. every time we try to speak up against this we got problems. we're intimidated by a strong organizations that are not welcome in our community because we are not going to stop. as a matter of fact, uganda, it made us, we are sitting, i and my youth coordinator on the side of the table of the news to do a -- it was ramadan time, for

the youth. from my experience, i'm an expert, i can say that, i have been there from the beginning. i don't just mention, we find out that recruitists, we see eye on eye each other on the coffee shops, showing the young men how glorious it is, how successful they are riding these horses, exploding themselves, seeing all of these things. and we have to combat what they did that in ugan. so immediately we organized with no penny to rent a big team to organize 400 young men to play basketball. >> i wish you all good success. >> the time expired. and the gentle lady from california is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. at the outset i must say that i find this hearing to be grossly incomplete and i feel that without the representation of

the department of homeland security, the fbi, the department of justice, we are seeing a very skewed discussion with the exception of sheriff baca who is here. i think these anecdotes are interesting, i don't believe these are experts. i would suggest that if we are really going to be complete in this hearing, we should also be investigating the army of god and their website in which they openly praise christian terrorists as part of an effort to look at home grown terrorism in this country. let me start by first asking dr. jasser, if you believe the majority of mosques in this country are actively recruiting terrorists? >> that's not what i said. >> i'm asking that question. >> no, i do not believe the majori of mosques are actively recruiting terrorists. >> do you believe you have expertise to be speaking? >> it's interesting. that's question that the theo

krats ask me all the time so it seems you are asking the same thing. my love my faith my demonstrable experience in dealing with this issue of reform of knowledge of not only my scripture and my practice of faith but the constitution i think positions me pretty well to deal with it, and be part of the solution. i'm not sure who else you would like to solve this problem but i think it's only musls that can do. and it would be sort of like asking at the time of the american revolution that you want to have testimony about the church of england's threat to america and you would only listen to the priests and you know, that would be wrong because it was the lay community that ultimatelyntellectual lay community that understood their faith that brought about the reform and the change against the establishment, so i hope you don't look upon expertise as something that gets handed down from the clerics and part of the problem. >> no, but i'm a practicing roman catholic, i go to church every single sunday, i'm a lekter in my parish. i am no more prepared to speak

about the pedophilia in the catholic church because i am a practicing roman catholic and i think we do need have experts come here to testify on home grown terrorism in this country, and while i appreciate the anecdotes of those who have spoken i don't think that they are necessarily very enlightening. >> well -- >> sheriff baca, let me ask you, how important have muslim americans been in your efforts to foil terrorist plots in los angeles county? >> los angeles county as you know we haven't had an attack as such. and i think that the ability to prevent is what we're trying to do more than anything else. our weighing of success across the nation cannot be weighed alone by los angeles's model. what i do believe is that if i were a new yorker or if i was a d.c. resident or even someone in

the fields of pennsylvania, that there's a whole different reality about terrorism when it happens in places that you love and have grown up in the more specific way. and therefore, the variability of the panel today is that i speak about what i do to prevent terrorism, these individuals have a more intimate weighing in on the issue of terrorism. the doctor on the other end is a scholar, more perhaps than even a medical doctor, but the truth is that this is a most difficult subject to get your arms around. and i believe that our country is doing magnificently given all of the complexity of a big country that spreads not only throughout the mass land of america, but everyone around the world particularly the countries abroad and where i'm spping in to say where i'm helping, i'm lping the middle east police departments and i'm dealing with

muslims that are in my profession around the world, we didn't even get into that. we're not going to deal with anythi without the nnectivity of resources outside america with those that are inside america. >> if i could interrupt for a moment. one more question. i'm running out of time. i don't know how much discussion has been had about the lone wolf phenomenon. but certainly the congressional research service and their review has spoken about the lone wolves, we've seen it in the jared loughners, the timothy mcveighs, in some of the christmas day bomber and the like. so, what would you say about the risk of home grown terrorism coming from what are called lone wolves? >> it's definitely there. i mean, you know, the concept of a lone wolf terrorist is based on a variety of explanations but they are definitely part of the element of an attack that will

occur similar to the one in new york. but there is always help. the lone wolf theory is an interesting one. rarely does any one have the smarts enough to pull off one of these attacks on their own so i think that there is a lone person, whether it's abdul out of nigeria on a christmas holiday period, they'll execute on their own as a single person but behind them there is always someone around, a peer jihadist, violent jihadist who is is helping them accomplish their mission. >> the time expired. the gentleman from minnesota is recognized for fiv minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'like to thank the members of the panel, particularly mr. bledsoe, mr. bihi and mr. jasser. i do consider your testimony expert testimony. you live it. >> i want to say thank you. >> you're welcome. you live it every day, you have been fighting for it in

minneapolis, every day on a daily basis. i commend you for your courage, your conviction, and i applaud you, especially mr. bihi living in minneapolis in minnesota, i understand what you have gone through, i understand the trials and tribulations you have gone thugh and i commend you, sir, not only you, but also your family members that have also had to have been brave through this as well because you, sir, have been under persecution by entities that's supposed to represent the muslim faith. so i commend you sir and mr. bledsoe, and i just can't say that ough. thank you very much for your courage. mr. bihi, you are representing voices from minnesota, families whose sons have been radicalized, isn't abroad to wage jihad against muslims and nonmlims in somalia. at the forefront i want to recognize in a public way that minnesota so mmalis are by and

large good people and re chasing the american dreams that my grandparents came for just like you. raising their kids to be great americans and bettering our great state of the state of minnesota. and i reject the message from some on this committee, and these hearings as doing anything but initiating an open process and not only protecting muslim americans but protecting all americans. my goal is to put a spotlight on this particular issue and then refocus this lens on the small number of individuals and organizations in the muslim community that are 100% committed to totally implement islamic law which is in direct violation of article 6 of the constitution of the united states. so again, gentlemen, i thank you very much for your commitmento this. sheriff, i just have a couple of

questions for you if you don't mind. thank you for your service in the corps. >> marine. >> sorry, sir. i'm a navy guy. hope you won't hold it against me. i helped lots -- i have a question in regard to care. you are aware that this is hamas and brotherhood, muslim brotherhood enty. is that correct, sir in >> no, i'm not aware of that. >> let me bring this to your attention then. this was actually proven in the fbi identifies 1993 philadelphia meeting as has meeting. and that all attendees of this meeting are hamas members. the two people that were in that meeting were both founders of care. so my question is, sir, basically you're dealing with the terrorist organization.

and i'm trying to get you to try to understand that they might be using you, sir, to implement their goals. >> well, thank you for asking me that question. but it sounds more like a possible accusation being misused by an organization that quite frankly, let me st answer you this way. i'm an elected official as you are. if the fbi has something to charge care with, bring those charges forward and try them in court and deal with it that way. there is a reality that in my culture as a police officer tt you have facts and you have a crime. deal with it. we don't play around with criminals in my world. if care is an organization that's a, quote, criminal organization, prosecute them. hold them accountable d bring them to trial. >> my time is limited sir.

are you saying that the fbi was wrong in identifying that care is part of hamas? >> let me say this. you don't want to cause a conflict between me and the fbi. >> i'm just asking. >> we work together better than perhaps this committee works together. >> that would be an understatement at this point. i'm just asking a question. let me ask you this question. hypothetical. if you knew that care was a terrorist organization sponsored by hamas would you continue to work with them? >> you're asking me a question that i'm not qualified to answer because i'm not representing hamas, i'm t representing care, i'm not representing anything other than your personal safety and i do work well with your police in the great state that you represent. >> sir, i'm doing the same thing trying to protect the united states of america citizens. thank you very much. now i yield back my 10 seconds. >> this committee usually does

get along pretty well. the gentle lady from new york, recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. let me say that today's hearing has been a great congressional theater. certainly the equivalent of reality tv. and i'm just -- i'm just really appalled at the fact that we have not really gotten to a substantive conversation about how we define terrorism, how we define the whole idea of radicalization, because just in listening, if i had my eyes closed and listening to the witnesses not to diminish what they've been through because their experience is real, but i have parents in my district who

can sit andalk about their children being recruited, their children being brain washed, and their children are gang members. okay? and the bloodshed, the lives that have been lost in communities like mine across this nation, since i've been here, has not been an issue of homeland security. and when i hear dr. jaser talk about the concerns about the elements of radicalization in existence, in islam, i'm also reminded that there are those same elements evident in christianity and in judaism. i know because i represent all three faiths in my district. and as someone who was directly impacted by 9/11, and who has lived in a community where we

have respected every human being irregardless of their background, their ethnicity, their religion, to see us come to this day where we are pointing fingers at one another, i don't see the benefit in it. i see the benefit in the approach of sheriff bach. i see the benefit in us opening up the dialogues, but i don't see the benefit in stigmatizing, finger poting, or even creating the specter that it may occur, even if it doesn't, as being something worthy of where we should be in our collective humanity in the 21st century. and so while i can empathize with the challenges faced by these families, we can all point to instances in our districts where families are suffering. the goal here should be how do

we address that suffering through communication, through dialogue, through enlightenment, which is where we need to be in the 21st century. i'd like to take this moment and yield the balance of my time to the gentle lady from california, ms. laura richardson. >> thank you, ms. clark. for the record, i just wanted to clarify and build upon the question, the last question i asked you, sheriff bacha. there have been two issues mr. king brought up for this hearing. one was the fact of are american muims cooperating with law enforcement? the second issue is the scope. and so i just want to clarify. your answer was you think these hearings are good. and i agree that having an open discussion about problems and preventing terrorism is good. but what i want to clarify for the record, so it's not used against us, is do you agree that discussions like this should not -- sure, we should talk about preventing terrorism and radicalization, but should the scope be so narrowed only to

include american muslim community or should other communities and other groups also be discussed in the same fashion? beuse thus far we haven't been told of those hearings. >> well, i believe it depends on the time and scope. i know that you've heard significantly from all four of us and i think that these witnesses are incredibly important but if you try to package it all up in one big group, we'll be here for three weeks. >> no, sheriff, i'm not suggesting all necessarily in the one time but it is very important we get this answer and i got 32 seconds. the question is, don't you think there should also be a discussion of the other groups? >> oh, definitely. >> thank you, sir. >> my testimony, you know, more radical extremists' acts of crime are occurring in the united states of america othe reports that have been given by members of congress and myself on this committee that nonmuslim

extremists are a problem in this country. and, you know, we don't have to go too far back in history to understand what the ku klux klan is all about. and i believe the sensitivities are as t sensitivities are if you lived in new york, you lived in washington, and you lived in places in the united states that were harmed by these terrorists on 9/11 or if you lived in parts of america where you were lynched or you were ultimaly -- had your churches burned down, there's no difference in the outcome. and so i think that there's a reason for different points of view on this matter, but i'm glad for the consciousness that we have here on the discussion because i am a very strong opponent of any kind of violence that is basically so indiscriminate, whether it's holocaust violence or just one

individual, either way, the damage is unacceptable to civilization. >> the time of the gentle lady is expired. the gentleman from illinois is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you've heard this before but thank you for having the resight and the courage to put this hearing on. mr. bee hee and mr. bledsoe, a colleague on the other side referred to you as not expert, your testimony as not expert testimony, and i think the word she used to describe your experiences was interesting. mr. behe, mr. bledsoe, take a shot at that. what you both have gone through is interesting the word you'd use to describe it? >> i think i'd describe it as a tragedy. i'd also like to say to perhaps the person who was speaking on the other side, i'm wondering, how d they get on the

commission to speak about some of the things they're speaking about? i mean, we're not talking about how much of arofessional or expert. we're speaking about what happened here to our children and what we are speaking about what may happen to your children. we're speaking about the danger. i thinmost of the people that i'm hearing on the other side are talking about political fear and that's what i mostly hear here. there is -- now, there are certain populations -- a small pulation we're talking about, islamic extremists, who we're worried about stepping on their toes and they are talking about stamping us out. not just stamping us out but everything that america stands for. i'm wondering, why don't the people pull their blinders off? >> mr. bledsoe, to that point, what do you think they're aaid of? fear of at?

>> i think they're afraid of political fear. perhaps not getting re-elected or something. but this is real. this is the real thing happening in america. if it's not going to happen by not doing anything about it, if you ignore, say we don't have a problem, then you're inviting the problem to come again. >> mr. behe, what word would you use besides interesting to describe what you went through? >> there are no words to describe what i went through or those families went through. we basically put our neck out, all of us, and we destroyed ourselves. well, did we do it again this type of environment all the time that we are facing all the way for just speaking out for our country and for our children or our communities? yes. we will do it, because the immensity of the danger, the immensity of the danger, the

person, the organization that was very successful, could change the brain of the kid who loves you so much and make him go to the worst place on earth and explode himself. that organization is dangerous. it's not about bihi or my brother here being experts. we are not looking for certification. we are looking to save the rest. our kids died. my kid died. many of them died. we never stop. we paid the price for speaking up. we never stop. we saved hundreds and hundreds in the united states, thousands around -- so i think it's a good reward, those families who speak out to save others. his son is in jail. we are trying to save the rest, not looking to be experts. >> why are so many other american muslim organizations

afraid of holding these hearings? they didn't want to hold this hearing. what, in your estimation, are they afraid of? >> you know, that's a great question, and i think, you know, at the endf the day, change is very difficult, you know. i was asked about what am i doing here? and, you know, my family asks me th frequently because of all the pressure we get because of what i do. it's not an easy task taking on an establishment, a mentality that will not change or reform, that will not realize there are changes that have to happen internally to prevent this cancer from happening. the pressures are innumerable especially for a minority population. it's interesting that they are circling the wagons instead of i think the best way to let fear of muslims melt away is to have them see us leading the charge, so in many ways, also, we're not intellectually equipped i think from a religious standpoint

because we haven't had the infrastructure built in liberty and theology because so many muslims i think don't understand the faith well and have not been educated in a western mindset and we have to build these infrastructures to allow that reform to happen. but it's a lot of tribalism i think and a lot of circling of the wagons and there's -- that has to change and they don't want to -- >> thank you all. thank you, mr. chairman. >> the gentleman's time is expired. mr. davis from illinois is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i want to thank all of the witnesses for coming. as i've listened i've heard the constitution being mentioned a number of times. i thought of the preamble that simply says that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. and i'd also say the pursuit of justice. i think all people want to be viewed and treated the same way, with equal rights, equal protection under the law, and the opportunity to pursue what they think especially as long as it is not violating the rights of others. sli sheriff baca, i've always been, since i've known about you, impressed with your law enforcement career, especially the way that youandled things like law enforcement misconduct and the way that you try and bring people together to understand the role of law

enforcement. i was just thinking that, you know, the city of chicago is looking for a police chief right now. and whe we wouldn't try to steal you from -- we would like to clone you if we could and just bring you, because i think that you represent a level of law enforcemt professionalism and understanding of what the role of law enforcement is that i've been looking for and searching for and wanting to see ever since i've been involved in public life. and so i simply commend you for the way in which you have expressed yourself today and for the track record that you have developed. i'd like to ask mr. bihi and mr. bledsoe a question right now.

and i understand fully -- i live in inner city chicago -- have lived there all of my adult life. we have a large muslim community gathering sometimes with 15,000, 20,000 people actually goingo listen to minister farakhan speak and will be enthralled the whole time. what conditions do you think exist that cause radical groups to think that they can successfully recruit and radi l radicalize young people, especially, in neighborhoods and communities like the one that i just described?

>> well, i do know a little bit about chicago. you're speaking mostly what they call black muslims, louis farakhan and elijah mohamed and malcolm x followers. i think there is somewhat of a difference but as the recruitment part, ihink the recruitment part will come before like when people are denying that we have a problem and that is one recruitment people will go after -- if we don't have a problem then they can recruit easier. >> well, i agree that i do mean african-americans, but i must confess that my breadth is much bigger, much wider, much broader, and i interact with all kinds of muslims pretty much on a regular and ongoing basis. what i'm really trying to get at, i guess, is are there

situations that would cause individuals to believe that they're going to be successful? i mean, i don'to hunting unless i think some game is there. >> yes. >> i don't go fishing unless i think there is some fish in the lake. >> may i answer that, sir? >> do you want to add something? >> well, i'm going to add something. you know, there are professional people out there that are looking for just that. you know, there are professional people looking out to recruit american citizens not only in chicago but a lot of other american cities. >> sir, if i may add, yes, the are many reasons why they're looking for our youth. number on if you look at the -- the similarities of those who are missing from minneapolis, or from denmark, or from copenhagen or from sweden

or from lancaster, they all share one thing. they all are mostly from single mom households -- young men that usuay do not have mentorship at home are almost 85%. number two, they are looking for young people who never had any problem. third, they are looking for kids who are from america and those western countries who are from those countries that will not have a problem when they are training. they can go back and slip into those countries and they can just order them to do those dirty, wicked jobs. >> thank you very much. and thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> thank you, mr. vis. the gentlemanfrom pennsylvania, former unid states attorney? >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank this entire panel. i know it's been a long process, but i really do believe that

we're gaining a grt deal from your insight. sheriff baca, i want to thank u for the work that you do. i know you represent all law enforcement. i had the good opportunity to come in as the united states attorney just a week after september 11 and i watched colleagues like you all across the united states fan out and reach into the community and i have to say we got a great deal of dialogue from members all across, including many who practiced the muslim faith. so i don't think the issue really today is so focused on the, you know, the question of dialogue. it's as much the question of are we getting the right ability to communicate in a way that helps us prevent the next event? and i have been aware of one of the things we were asked to do by the very experts that aren't here today was to go out into the community and speak to folks just like you so we could

understand better how to handle this. and i have tried to look at the broad spectrum of things that have been put forth quite a bit here today but, dr. jasser, i'm going to focus on something that you touched. and it's into this area between, you know, this elephant in the room that we're not supposed to be talking about. >> religion and jihadism. you made a statement that the root cause of muslim radicalization, and this is what it's about, is islamism, political islam. and then i was struck by your word. how can law enforcent effectively do counterterrorism in our country without recognition that political islam and its narrative is the core ideology when at its extreme it drives the general mindset of the violent extremists carrying out attacks? that's what we want to prevent are thoseattacks.

can i ask you to describe just a little more detl, what do you mean by political islam? >> thank you, congressman, for asking me that. i think it's so vital to understanding that as we've heard repeatedly there's islam, my faith, which is the moral constru constructs of integrity and honesty and virtuousness and what i bring to my scripture d my relationship with god as the judeo christian tradition is. then there is political islam which is a movement to create a th theocratic state. now i may practice islamic law in my life but that's a choice and our organization believes it's no longer religious law, it is no longer a religion if government coerces you to do that. but that antagonism between this country's understanding of the establishment clause and the beauty of liberty versus political islam which wants to put into place islamic states like iran, like the taliban had

in place, or like the wahabi system in saudi arabia or, milder yet, there are versions of political islam that are 3.0 or 4.0 that use democracy and elections but yet end up still being based not in reason but society is based in scripture exegesis where the only people that can have opinions are the scholars of islam. and therefore lay muslims like myself get dismissed from proceedings because we're not experts in islamic l and therefore it becomes an igarchy. that is what we're up against. and there are the extreme versions like osama bin laden, trying to create a global homogeny of islac states and there are the more slippy versions that believe in democracy and i think you can look at the threat by looking at why most of the radical groups around the world were hatched from muslim brotherhood ideology and people should readup those ideas and look at what they've done. i think as we understand that you'll see a lot of those ideas

influencing identification of muslim -- i put in my materials in the appendix some charts that look at the radicalization process. one was from the nypd report. the other was from a counterterrorism expert patrick poole who looked at the fact that you end up with terror on the top but there's a lot of feeders into that. the primary feeder is the paratist feeling from some muslim youth that they dream of a utopia to bring the state back to the way it was at the time of the prophet mohammed and the time in the 7th century he mixed roles of being a head of state, a general, and a messenger of god. we need to start creating new ideas. they call that, some would call it heretical. i call it modernization, new ideas that separate those roles because the times square bomber, when he was in front of the judge, he told him, i did this because i was a muslim soldier. so our muslim community is looked at by these individua as being a political unit,

military unit, and until we separate that you will never stop terrorism. >> thank you. >> the gentleman's time is expired, and now we have three members who are adde by unanimous consent. >> thank you, mr. chairman, for these hearings. appreciate it and thank you, ranking member thompson, as well as the witnesses. just want to say to dr. jasser's point quickly i don't think this conversation should be given over totally to the intellectuals. i know we have some disagreements but i agree with your premise. we have to be very suspicious about these so-called gatekeepers. >> thank you. >> as it relates to the religion. i think all muslim business persons and so on should have a contribution and we shouldn't minimize or trivial iiz folks' experiences or lessen their credibility as it relates to testifying. having said that as a proud american muslim, sheriff baca, i spent over a decade in law enforcement including some times

in an intelligence capacity with the department of homeland security. i want to thank you for dispatching the sergeant to meet with me as i visited l.a. but during the time i worked in law enforcement, i worked with informants and cooperating witnesses from all backgrounds and a wide variety of cases. and in every case, one reality held true, that those who trusted law enforcement, the judicial system and our government, were most likely to provide useful information in a very timely manner. also, those who felt singled out or targeted were nuch less likely to provide useful information as well. since the establishment of the department of homeland security and the passage of the patriot act, there have been considerable discussions about certain law enforcement and intelligence practices that may do more to spur anti-american sentiment in the muslim community than to apprehend terrorist plotters. national security letters,

warrantless and wiretaps as well as under cover investigations in mosques have already caused many muslims to fear that their constitutional rights are being disregarded in the name of preventing terrorism. can you tell us, sheriff, how these and other law enforcement and intelligence practices have impacted muslim populations in l.a., particularly, also tell us if you have any suggestions about how this committee and congress might better structure these proceeds to protect civil rights while maintaining effectiveness. >> well, that is a very tough question to answer in a short period of time, but i'll make my best effort. intelligence gathering in and of itself is an interesting subject and as we know, in many of the experiences the united states has gone through since 9/11, that intelligence in and of itself moves the subject matter around, meaning what you believe

is in one report, may be modified by another report, which may be modified by another report, which ultimately leads to where is the pea under the shell? i don't think anybody that's in the law enforcement world involved in intelligence gathering, pleased to know you have been, understands that if you don't have the authority in the intelligence world to make an arrest at the time that the evidence demonstration that it should be done, then the question is what intelligence do you believe and what intelligence don't you believe and who are your sources and what are your sources' motives for providing you the information? now, it's very clear to me that that father came into a police station in any place in america and saidmy dad is acting a little weird and i need some help we would know exactly what

to do. but this was not the case. the process was morphed into an intelligence mode and then it went into a status file as opposed to an active file and i think we've corrected that in our federal intelligence gathering system. but if we look at intelligence as being the bible of all truth, we're in deep trouble in this country. what we have to do is continue to improve what we do to use techniques that are clearly not obscuring evidence but clearly making sure that the evidence is in fact what is being reported to be and i think therein is a whole different discussion the intelligence committee can deal with or subcommittee but when it comes down to the truth of all forms of investigative work, it

is not an exact science a hundred percent of the time so what is the safeguards? it has to be there are rules to follow. now, we follow the rules that the federal government set forth in intelligence gathering at our local joint regional intelligence centers and the joint terrorism task force. so we have the rules in place but the human element is another issue with me and that is that if we have intelligence officers that have a bias about a particular group they're investigating, you're going to have some problems with the communication capabilities there. i believe in bias free policing, public trust policing. i don't believe you can judge one muslim for the acts of another. you can't judge anybody fromhe acts of anoth. what we have do is get to the point where whatever is being advised to congress we say, okay. we get it.

we've had a hearing. now we have to go out into the communities affected by the subject matter. i welcome ctinual dialogue, continual examination, and continual visitation, but i do believe that we need to always be mindful of what's going none the intelligence community. >> the time of the gentleman is expired. sheriff baca, my understanding -- sheriff baca? >> yes, sir. >> my understanding from talking with the ranking memr is you have to catch a plane at 3:00 and he suggests you may need to leave the panel by 1:30. >> yes, sir. >> whatever time you leave is up to you. in the event we're in the middle of something when you leave i thank you sincerely for your testimony and contribution and your patience. >> i thank you, mr. chairman, and your committee. it'seen a pleasure. >> thank you, sir. >> i know you made a big sacrifice to get here. your testimony has been absolutely essential to this committee. thank you much. >> may i make a response before

the sheriff leaves? >> no, actually, on to the next step. i recognize the gentleman from viinia for five minutes. >> thank you. i'd like to thank each of our panel of witnesses here for participating in t hearing. americans of muslim faith truly are an integral part of our nation's community and play -- contribute to the quality of life in this country. they are our neighbors and our friends. muslims serve honor ashleyy as policemen, teachers, and in our armed services and some indeed have given the ultimate sacrifice in defense of our freedom and our way of life. my deep respect for the muslim community as the foundation upon which i approach this critical issue. it's with alarm and frankly with a degree of sadness that i conclude the radicalization of our youth, one that is intent on spreading violent, islamic extremism, is indeed taking

place in this country imposing a serious and increasing threat to our security. that's why i respectfully reject the charge that this hearing is unnecessary and an assault on any particular faith. i see this as a conversation, albeit over hyped, but it is a conversation that must take place and i commend the chairman for remaining steadfast and holding a thoughtful dialogue on this subject. dr. jasser i'd like to address my first question to you, sir. i no in your written testimony you conclude one paragraph with this line. the liberty narrative is the only effective counter to the islamist narrative. you certainly have my attention. i fully agree withthat. and what are the next steps to play that out an use that proper message to counter what's taking place now?

>> i look at my own life about why i turned out the way i did and nidal hasan turned out the way he did. i grew up for example lening that our system of governance, people are innocent until proven guilty. our law enforcement is innocent until proven guilty. same process. and i think what we need to do is we don't have -- we've talked about nation building and how that doesn't work. now we've shifted into institution building. it's interesting that somehow we compartmentalize things abroad different than we do domestically. in fact, it's the sameissue. it's the same diagnosis. the concepts of liberty. my parents were blessed to have -- my father was blessed to have been educated in london so the understanding of the separation of church and state is something he internalized as an undergrad but there is no educational infrastructure to bring jeffersonian democracy to many of our own heritages. so if we're going to get these i

ideainto the communities so it becomes part of the institutions we build and we take on the imams and remind the imams that it means teacher, not leader, all you do is teach us religion. you don't lead society. you don't have a role in government. this whole enlightenment process needs institutions that you can help us build, help us provide infrastructure to do that but yet allow muslims to do it. and i think it doesn't cross the first amendment because your role is to advance liberty, advance freedom, advance and help ideas of equality of human rights, universal human rights concepts, and then you make sure that we live to those and our islamic institutions endorse those. and then we start engaging in al jazeera, media, and muslim media, these ideas because right now mostf the foreign media orris lamb ik media is not having this discourse. it's all about pole art